Welcome back to the Oathbringer reread! This week launches the Moash Novelette, which as you know is something we are just so excited about. To provide a change of perspective, we have a special guest to discuss the (ir)redeemability of the character some of us love to hate so much. We’ll also do a little reconnaissance training with Shallan, and sit in on a meeting of the scholars.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. As usual for Part 2, there are very minor Cosmere spoilers in the Epigraphs review, but nothing else in the reread itself. (Also as usual, we make no promises about the comments!) But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Alice: Before we begin, I’d like y’all to meet Aubree Pham! She’s generously agreed to join us for the Moash novelette discussions. Aubree is another of Sanderson’s beta readers, and where Lyn and I tend to fall in the “no redemption!” camp, Aubree is much more in the “Moash did nothing wrong” camp. But I’ll let her tell you a little about herself, and then we’ll dive into the discussions.
Aubree: Thanks, Alice! I might be a familiar name to some of y’all—I’m mostly active in the fandom as a member of the Board of Directors for JordanCon, where we host a full track of programming for Sanderson fans. That’s actually how I first met Brandon, who has been a long term supporter of ours. Anyway, I wouldn’t say that Moash did nothing wrong, but I definitely think that he gets a raw deal from the fandom. Brandon creates complicated characters, with lots of our “heroes” also having done some really shady stuff. There’s way more to Moash than he’s been given credit for, but we will get to that!
AA: Also, Lyn is taking this week off for a minor medical procedure. She’ll be back next week.
AP: Pretty sure it’s because Lyn Can’t Even with Moash…Lucky her, we get to talk about it more next week too! So for now, I’ll attempt to be Stunt Lyn.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Moash; Shallan
WHERE: The Frostlands; Urithiru marketplace and basement library
WHEN: 1174.1.5.2 (same day as the battle with Re-Shephir); 1174.1.7.3 (two days after Shallan’s last conversation with her soldiers)
Moash shivers with his Diagram traveling companions out in the middle of the Frostlands, missing the camaraderie—and the food—of Bridge Four. With little warning, they are attacked by four Fused; Moash kills one, but his three companions are killed and Moash surrenders. Their Shardblades and Plate are confiscated by the Fused, and Moash himself is airlifted to parts unknown.
Shallan, as Veil, sits in on the espionage training Ishnah is giving to her top three soldiers, hoping to pick up a few tips herself. Then it’s off to a meeting of scholars, where Shallan takes notes and, oddly enough, finds herself coming to Renarin’s defense.
The Singing Storm
Titles: Spearman; The Bright Side
Spearman comes from Moash’s realization that, despite his longing for Shards and his practice once he got them, he’s really a spearman and not a swordsman. It’s one of the few titles that’s not a direct quotation.
The Bright Side is used twice, both in the same exchange between Renarin and Shallan:
“Always look on the bright side.”
“Logically,” Shallan said, “the bright side is the only side you can look on, because the other side is dark.”
Aside from the obvious quotation about the Unmade leading them to find the basement and all it contains, “bright” has multiple meanings and applications throughout the chapter. “Bright” as in “intelligent”—both those who really are, and those who only think they are. “Bright” as in the cleverness of Ishnah’s spy-training, and Vathah’s unexpected aptitude.
Heralds: Chach; Battar
AA: Chach bears the role of Guard, is associated with the attributes of Brave and Obedient, and is the patron Herald of the order of Dustbringers. (At one time I hoped maybe this meant Moash would become a Dustbringer, and I still think he would have fit that order well, but I don’t see him becoming a Radiant any more.) Still, in this chapter he is definitely brave, though not to the point of stupidity; to some extent he’s also obedient to Graves, at least in removing his uniform patches. If we want to look at the possibilities of the inverse… he does spend a moment reflecting on the betrayal of his role as Guard to the Kholins.
For Shallan’s chapter, we’ve got Battar, the Counsellor, patron of the Elsecallers, with the attributes of Wise and Careful. (Thanks for catching that last time, Isilel!) I don’t really see this fitting in with the early part of the chapter, unless Ishnah is acting as a counsellor and teaching them how to be careful. Mostly, I think it reflects Jasnah’s leadership of the meeting, and the way both Shallan and Renarin focus in on her… influences.
Icon: Not Bridge Four; Pattern
AA: Notice that this week we get another new character icon; this one is exclusive to Moash’s novelette and POV, and reflects his actions this week in cutting the Bridge Four patch from his uniform. I’ve personally referred to this as the “Anti-Bridge Four” icon, but I also considered “Void Patch” in light of where Moash ends up.
AP: The not-patch? I like how the “hole” where the patch was also matches up with the hole in Moash’s self-identity at this point. He’s no longer Bridge Four, no longer a darkeyes, but not really a lighteyes either. And now, on the run, not part of Alethi/Vorin society at all.
AA: Yeah, he’s really got a gaping hole right now, doesn’t he? He’s not even truly part of the Diagram, because he doesn’t care about their larger goals.
Epigraph: You have spoken to one who cannot respond. We, instead, will take your communication to us—though we know not how you located us upon this world. We are indeed intrigued, for we thought it well hidden. Insignificant among our many realms.
AA: Bavadin continues with the “we” thing, even while distinguishing between different… aspects… of herself. I’m curious about the “one who cannot respond,” and also which world this particular persona inhabits. So many questions… and I wonder how long we’ll be waiting for answers! My own guess is that “this world” might be First of the Sun, but I’m probably wrong on that, because I’ve got nothing to base it on. Zip. Nada. Zilch. (For now, anyway!)
Stories & Songs
“I have no need for your maps,” Febrth said, folding his arms. “The Passions guide me.”
“The Passions?” Graves said, throwing his hands up. “The Passions? You’re supposed to have abandoned such superstitions. You belong to the Diagram now!”
AA: I’ve really enjoyed Sanderson’s worldbuilding with regard to the varying religions on Roshar. We’ve seen a lot of Vorinism, and can point out a lot of what is correct and incorrect in their teaching—and learning more all the time. In Oathbringer we get increased exposure to other religions, and this week we’ve got another shot at the Thaylen belief in The Passions—even though they are nominally Vorin. This gets really creepy later on when Odium starts claiming to be “all passions” instead of just hatred and wrath.
Oh, and before I forget, it’s worth noting that Graves treats the Diagram as a religion to replace all other belief systems. Appropriate, I suppose.
AP: Oh yeah, I was totally going to bring this up. The fact that the Thaylens believe in “The Passions” is definitely going to come up later.
AA: How much are we going to learn about what that means?
AP: I don’t know! But I suspect it has something to do with a prior connection to Odium. Perhaps in a prior Desolation.
“You,” she said in accented Alethi, “have passion.”
AA: ACK! I forgot it’s hinted at in this very chapter! Right there at the end… the Fused commends Moash for his passion. Yikes.
AP: Yuuupppp…It’s definitely going to tie in later. I’ll come back when it’s time to talk about Thaylenah: Secret History. Also, because I just looked it up, the Passions religion in Thaylen was prior to it joining the Vorin church. And I think the Vorins are total garbage* as a religion/society, so I’m very interested to see where all this goes!
*Aubree note: garbage as in the culture is incredibly well written, but the society described is awful and dehumanizing, and deserves to fail.
These weren’t like the Parshendi he’d seen on the Shattered Plains. They had deep red eyes and red-violet carapace, some of which framed their faces. The one facing him had a swirling pattern to her skin, three different colors mixing. Red, black, white. Dark light, like inverse Stormlight, clung to each of them.
AA: I think maybe this is the first time we’ve seen one of the Parshendi with all three colors. At least, I couldn’t find any mention of it when Kaladin was in Revolar, and I don’t know where else we’d have seen it.
“…And besides, you’re right. This place is one big fabrial.”
“You feel it too? They keep talking about this device or that device, but that’s wrong, isn’t it? That’s like taking the parts of a cart, without realizing you’ve got a cart in the first place.”
…
“But what does it do?” Shallan asked.
“It does being a city.” He frowned. “Well, I mean, it bees a city.… It does what the city is.…”
AA: This is one of my favorite moments. For all that Shallan has found Renarin kind of creepy before, they come together in this scene to make it all make sense, and they provide mutual support in this scene—which is awesome in itself.. (Also, “It bees a city” is absolutely beautiful. It makes me happy. In fact, I even suggested “Bees” as a possible title for the chapter because it made me so happy.)
Seriously, though, this whole concept pleases me no end, and I believe they’re correct. The entire tower is formed to be one big fabrial, with Stormlight feeding it through multiple gemstones to perform all the different functions it needs. I’m really looking forward to Navani & company digging into this aspect… though I’m pretty sure it won’t function fully until the Sibling gets involved.
AP: I totally agree. I’m really interested to see what the city “bees” when the fabrials are working properly. I’m also quite fond of Renarin, so I’m glad to see him finally stepping out of his comfort zone to attend one of these meetings. It’s a good reminder that the strict gender divisions in Vorin society don’t only constrain the women, but the men as well. Toxic masculinity is bad for everyone, yo. And I absolutely love how Dalinar shows up at the end. It makes me think that there is some glimmer of hope for the Alethi.
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Legion: The Many Lives of Stephen Leeds
Relationships & Romances
She had once tried to avoid Adolin’s former romantic partners, but … well, that was like trying to avoid soldiers on a battlefield. They were just kind of everywhere.
AA: I just … well, this had to be said. That is all.
AP: Seriously. Boy gets around.
Shallan cocked her head as she saw Renarin glance at his father. Dalinar responded with a raised fist.
He came so Renarin wouldn’t feel awkward, Shallan realized. It can’t be improper or feminine for the prince to be here if the storming Blackthorn decides to attend.
She didn’t miss the way that Renarin actually raised his eyes to watch the rest of the proceedings.
AA: I know Dalinar hasn’t always been a good father, especially to Renarin, but this warms my heart all the way to my toes. One of the things I really do love about the Stormlight Archive series is that it deals directly in relationships between parents and their adult children. So much of fantasy requires that the parents be dead, absent, or at least evil, which isn’t realistic—it’s just the easy way to let the young person be the hero all on his/her own. I love seeing the trope tossed in the bin this way.
Bruised & Broken
She was pleased with the work that Veil was doing with the men, but storms, did she have to drink so much?
AP: Shallan, no. It’s all you girl. Don’t bees an alcoholic.
AA: This is such an echo of Veil’s snide comments recently about Shallan being weird and helpless, and if I remember right it begins to come in Veil’s thoughts as well as her words to others. Her personalities are sniping at each other. This just can’t be good.
AP: Yeah, I have a lot of feelings about the Shallan/Veil/Radiant situation. It just keeps getting worse during this stretch of things.
A dozen conversations buzzed through the room: talk about weights and measures, the proper placement of punctuation, and the atmospheric variations in the tower. Once she’d have given anything to be in a room like this. Now she was constantly late to the meetings. What had changed?
…
As it enveloped her—the ideas, the questions, the logic—she suddenly felt she was drowning. Overwhelmed. Everyone in this room knew so much, and she felt insignificant compared to them.
I need someone who can handle this, she thought. A scholar. Part of me can become a scholar. Not Veil, or Brightness Radiant. But someone—
AA: This just makes me sad. Okay, and more than a little frustrated, too, even though I understand it better than I wish I did. One of the things I loved about Shallan in the first book, for all her flippancy and superficial immaturity, was her hunger to learn. She was within a smidge of blowing off the whole steal-the-soulcaster project just to stay with Jasnah and be a real ward. When the truth all came out and she had the opportunity to openly do just that, she threw herself into it wholeheartedly. By now, though, her first thought is to create another persona to be the scholar, and she goes all muddled about who she really is.
AP: I think the gist of it is:
I know how much of a fraud I am…
Imposter syndrome! She sees everyone else with their specialty and fails to realize that she has her own specialty and thing to contribute. And she needs to have a bit of humility and go all in on being a student again. She’s not ready to graduate yet.
Shallan had always wanted to be a scholar, hadn’t she? She didn’t need another persona to deal with this. Right? … Right?
The moment of anxiety passed, and she breathed out, forcing herself to steady.
AA: Oh, Shallan, you poor dear.
Diagrams & Dastardly Designs
He’d once admired how refined Graves seemed. … his refinement didn’t matter much when they were all eating slop and pissing behind hills.
AA: What do they say? “Never meet your heroes?” Not that Graves was necessarily his hero, but a small company in harsh circumstances will strip off the veneer pretty fast. For all Graves’s vaunted connection to the all-knowing Diagram, here they are. And for all their “invincible Shardbearer” status, Graves will die in seconds. So much for admiration of refinement.
AP: More than that though, Moash is now a lighteyes, and is finding out that the other lighteyes are just…human.
AA: Good point. As much as he’d hated them as a class, he seems to have still seen them as… different from darkeyes, and … ugh. What’s the word I want? Superior? Despite his antipathy toward lighteyes, he was still sort of honored to be accepted by Graves & co.
AP: It’s part of the systemic oppression of Vorin society. He has internalized the hierarchy to some degree, even though he actively fights against it. But we will get to that! (I seem to be saying that a lot!)
Graves had spoken of these creatures, calling their return merely one of many events predicted by the inscrutable “Diagram.”
AA: “Merely” one of many events. I suppose that’s true, but … well, I was going to suggest that they’re one of the more deadly things it predicted. Now I’m trying to think of anything in the Diagram that’s not deadly.
AP: The Diagram is pretty fascinating. And extremely bleak. I don’t know how much credit to give it. It seems to predict a lot of stuff, but at the same time, the predictions seem to get revised a lot. Is it like Nostradamus where it’s all super vague and you can kinda sorta make the events fit?
AA: It really makes you wonder, doesn’t it? I mean, there are a things that seem awfully specific, but then there’s an “Oh, we didn’t realize it meant THAT!” moment. After a while, you’ve got to get a little skeptical!
Squires & Sidekicks
Moash rolled to his feet, and Kaladin’s training—drilled into him through hours and hours spent at the bottom of a chasm—took over. He danced away, putting his back to the wagon, as his Shardblade fell into his fingers.
AA: I’m going to quote a bunch of this, because I’m fascinated not only by the level of training, but also Moash’s constant thoughts giving Kaladin the credit for so much that he knows. Aubree, do you remember without me going to look it up… how much of a trained soldier was Moash before he got stuffed into the bridge crew?
AP: He didn’t! He volunteered for the army, expecting to be a spearman, and then was forced onto a bridge crew. He believed the propaganda that he could join up, win shards through merit, and then become a lighteyes. He was so optimistic that he could do it! But he was completely discarded by the lighteyes. Kaladin was the first one who invested in him.
AA: Well, that sucks! I’d forgotten that.
This weapon was just too clunky. … Yes, it could cut through anything, but he needed to actually hit for that to matter. It had been much easier to wield the thing wearing Plate.
…
… something rolled out the back of the wagon, thumping against the stone. A spear.
Moash looked down at his Shardblade, the wealth of nations, the most valuable possession a man could own.
Who am I kidding? he thought. Who did I ever think I was kidding?
AA: I just have to say that I loved this moment of honesty. It’s one of the last times I’ll “love” something Moash does for a long time. (Also, it relates closely to the recent discussion of Jasnah’s skill!)
After all those years dreaming of one of these, he’d finally received one. Kaladin had given it to him. And what good had come of it? He obviously couldn’t be trusted with such a weapon.
AP: He got everything he thought he wanted and it didn’t solve his problems.
AA: It never does, except in romance novels.
He could almost hear Kaladin’s voice. You can’t fear a Shardblade. You can’t fear a lighteyes on horseback. They kill with fear first and the sword second.
Stand your ground.
The Voidbringer came for him, and Moash stood his ground.
AA: Okay, I love this too… but mostly because of the way Moash is drawing on the things he learned from his time in Bridge Four under Kaladin’s leadership.
She pressed her hand against Moash’s chest, and that dark light transferred from her to him. Moash felt himself grow lighter.
Fortunately, Kaladin had tried this on him too.
AA: And again. Take that, you arrogant creature!
He grunted, but hung on, and got his knife up and rammed it into her chest.
… Moash hung on tight and pushed the knife farther.
She didn’t heal, as Kaladin would have. Her eyes stopped glowing, and the dark light vanished.
AA: On a completely different note, did she die of a “normal” mortal wound, or because he accidentally hit her gemheart? Seems like it ought to have something to do with the fact that she’s a Fused.
AP: It may be that the Fused don’t put much effort into healing. When you’ve got a revolving door of resurrections, why bother? It’s inconvenient, but might as well put all the effort you can into killing the enemy instead of defending your vessel. That also shows the lack of respect that the Fused have for the Singers, who are as disposable as a new set of clothes. More, because I really like some of my clothes.
AA: There was a lot of debate last week, stemming from the confrontation between Jasnah and Kaladin about the “ordinary” parshmen. Jasnah insisted that as long as there were more bodies available, they were never going to destroy all the Fused, while Kaladin wanted more than anything to just leave the parshmen out of it altogether. It’s really a horrible dilemma, because while Kaladin is right that most of them just want to be free, the Fused couldn’t care less what they want. You will accept the honor of being a vessel for your gods! Theoretically, they have to be willing to accept the “bonding,” but in the one scene we’ll get, they clearly don’t realize that the Fused only need their bodies, and their souls get chucked into the Beyond. It’s kind of frightening to realize that without the Oathpact to make them return to Braize, the Fused themselves would commit the Singer genocide Kaladin fears, in their effort to bring about a human genocide.
AP: I think that’s legit! Can you fight a just war with intentional civilian casualties? Not that the Alethi are super great about deciding the moral high ground in the best of situations. And anyway, in this case, I don’t think that the goal is to kill all the Fused. That’s short sighted. I think there’s likely some magical solution to work toward. At a minimum, the higher aim would be to get rid of Odium. And if the Singers have to consent to becoming Fused, work on your propaganda campaign.
AA: It’s worth noting that Jasnah’s preferred alternative to genocide was to see if they could get a Herald to return to Braize in the hope that the Fused would be bound by what’s left of the Oathpact, but no one has any idea whether that would work.
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The Ruin of Kings
And now for something completely different…
“Espionage,” Ishnah continued, “is about the careful gathering of information. Your task is to observe, but to not be observed. You must be likable enough that people talk to you, but not so interesting that they remember you.”
“Well, Gaz is out,” Red said.
“Yeah,” Gaz said, “it’s a curse to be so storming interesting.”
“Would you two shut up?” Vathah said.
AA: We can’t ignore Shallan’s sidekicks, the Marx brothers. Much as I loathed Gaz in the first book and mistrusted Vathah in the second, I’m really coming to have some hopes for these three. (Confession: the way Sanderson can twist me around to have hope for someone I used to despise makes me reluctantly admit that I’ll probably be happy about it if he gives Moash the redemption arc I’m expecting. But I’ll fight it until then!)
AP: See, here’s what’s interesting, I hate Gaz. I think he’s an awful person, who took out petty meanness on others. When we are talking about irredeemable characters, Gaz is way up there for me.
Vathah though … he’d closed his eyes and was reeling off descriptions of everyone in the room to Ishnah. Veil grinned. For as long as she’d known the man, he’d gone about each of his duties as if he had a boulder tied to his back. Slow to move, quick to find a place to sit down and rest. Seeing this enthusiasm from him was encouraging.
AA: I think Vathah just found his niche.
Places & Peoples
It was just that something felt … off about Janala. Like many women at court, her laughter sounded rehearsed, contained. Like they used it as a seasoning, rather than actually feeling it.
AA: I’m only quoting this because of the recent discussions about Vorin women’s conversation. It’s not painful for Shallan the way it was for Evi, because Shallan thrives on verbal sparring. It’s a great observation, though—that even laughter is treated as a useful tool more than it is a genuine expression of amusement. Speaking of laughter, this doesn’t really belong here, but I’m putting it here anyway.
Renarin laughed. It brought to mind how her brothers would laugh at what she said. Maybe not because it was the most hilarious thing ever spoken, but because it was good to laugh.
AA: May we never forget that.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
“Knives are deevy,” Red said.
AA: Since the subject came up just recently, I’ll mention that this is the first of the two conversations where the word “deevy” is used.
“Jasnah?” Pattern asked. “I do not think you are paying attention, Shallan. She is not very empathetic.”
AA: LOL
“I never have liked him,” Shallan whispered. “He acts nice around Dalinar, but he’s quite mean.”
“So which attribute of his are we totaling and how many people are in the sample size?” Pattern asked.
AP: Ha! Math jokes! Seriously though, I’m a super nerd because this made me cackle.
AA: I had to do a double-take, and then cracked up. Math jokes FTW.
“Janala is a fool, just bright enough to be proud of the wits she has, but stupid enough to be unaware of how outmatched they are.”
AA: Buurrnnnn…
“Thank you.”
“For?”
“Defending my honor. When Adolin does that, someone usually gets stabbed. Your way was pleasanter.”
AA: Also somewhat more amusing, despite Jasnah’s displeasure! One of the things I love most about the whole thing is that unlike Navani’s “judicious word,” Shallan’s outburst not only shut Janala up, it created a bond between Renarin and Shallan for the first time ever. That’s worth giving Jasnah a brief headache any day.
AP: As Jasnah would say, if you don’t want headaches, don’t take wards!
Moash’s Mysterious Murky Motivations
AA: We talked about most of the fighting part up in “Squires and Sidekicks” because I was so struck by how much Moash credits Kaladin for his training, but the rest of it belongs here in Motivations.
Moash felt at the Bridge Four patch on his shoulder. It brought memories. Joining Graves and his band, who had been planning to kill King Elhokar. ….
Facing off against Kaladin, wounded and bleeding.
You. Will. Not. Have. Him.
AA: As angry as I was at Moash for siding with Graves against Kaladin at the end of WoR, I almost felt sorry for him in this chapter. He takes no joy in these memories, and there are a number of times he overtly misses Bridge Four—and not merely for the cooking.
AP: Okay, here we go! Moash is completely unmoored here. He is a product of Alethi society that says that lighteyes and darkeyes are different. As a result the lighteyes keep the darkeyes in check through really brutal means, including slavery. He is feeling the warring emotions between being part of an in-group—Bridge Four—and being part of a political and emotional ideology—that the lighteyes don’t deserve the power & privilege they have. And even more, that Elhokar deserves death for being personally responsible for the death of Moash’s grandparents, and being then nominal leader of a society that condones slavery, of which Moash was one until very recently. So it’s personal. Alethkar’s culture is absolute garbage, and Moash is one of the few who call that out. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t difficult, and he isn’t mourning the loss of real, close, relationships that he developed as part of a unit. I was completely with him in WoR, he is trying to take down a dystopian society. In another epic fantasy novel, Moash would be the hero.
Moash held up the patch, trying to catch the firelight for a last look, and then couldn’t bring himself to throw it away.
…
Moash could almost hear their voices, and he smiled, imagining that he was there. Then, he imagined Kaladin telling them what Moash had done.
He tried to kill me, Kaladin would say. He betrayed everything. His oath to protect the king, his duty to Alethkar, but most importantly us.
Moash sagged, patch in his fingers. He should throw that thing in the fire.
Storms. He should throw himself in the fire.
AA: He recognizes his actions as a betrayal of Bridge Four, and I started to feel a little bit of hope. Maybe he would change. Maybe he could return to Bridge Four. Maybe he could help after all. It’s worth noting that others were less hopeful during the beta discussions; Paige, for example, was highly skeptical.
AP: It is a betrayal of Bridge Four. But Bridge Four is propping up a corrupt society. At some point you need to make a choice, friends or the greater good.
AA: (I just have to interject that I don’t see Moash as qualified to determine what “the greater good” looks like. Just sayin’…)
AP: Yeah, but ostensibly that’s what Team Diagram is. Whether that’s legit or not is totally debatable. Of course he feels guilt over betraying his unit. And he definitely has a personal vendetta, but it’s earned. His grandparents were killed by Elhokar. Keep in mind that the entire nation of Alethkar has spent years on a personal vendetta because some Parshendi killed Gavilar. In an entire culture build on honor and vengeance and glorification of violence. Kaladin is different because he works to protect the King, even though he personally has a great deal of reason to hate him because of his own family history. But there’s no reason to expect that everyone would be the “bigger person” like that. And Kaladin has the advantage of having a literal conscience on his shoulder telling him to be better. Moash doesn’t. This right here is one of the reasons I’m such a big Sanderson fan. Brandon does a great job of creating complex characters with believable motivations. Moash spent a long time being told he was disposable. It’s no surprise that he now has trouble letting go of the one group who told him he wasn’t.
AA: You’re absolutely right about Sanderson creating complex characters! So here’s my problem with Moash. Yes, his grandparents were killed because a young prince—Elhokar couldn’t have been more than 19 at the time—was heavily and destructively influenced by an older man who took advantage of his position. But where was Moash at the time? He had itchy feet and wanted to be out travelling, so he went off with caravans for months at a time, leaving his elderly grandparents on their own with a bitter lighteyed rival across the street. Never once does he admits that just maybe, he should have stayed home and they would have had someone to speak on their behalf. Would it have helped? Who knows? Maybe it wouldn’t have changed anything—but my biggest problem is that he refuses to consider that he had any responsibility to do so. No, everything is Elhokar’s fault, and in Moash’s mind that justifies betrayal of promises and regicide. I don’t think I’d be so angry at him if he ever expressed the slightest sense of guilt or regret that he wasn’t there to protect them—whether he could have or not—but he doesn’t. Nothing is ever his fault.
AP: Eh, that seems really victim blame-y. With the position of the darkeyes in Alethi society, if he’d been home he would also have been in prison. Taking a job outside the family business doesn’t mean that his grandparents deserved to be throw in jail, or that it was Moash’s fault.
AA: I’m not saying it was his fault—just that most people would feel like they had some responsibility, and Moash rarely if ever takes personal responsibility for his motivations. This is just the first and most obvious example.
He seized his spear again, fingers slick with blood, and pointed it at the three remaining Voidbringers, who regarded him with stunned expressions.
“Bridge Four, you bastards,” Moash growled.
…
“You can probably kill me. But I’ll take one of you with me. At least one.”
AA: I’m dreadfully ambivalent about Moash claiming Bridge Four here. His training is all Bridge Four, but he betrayed them—and Kaladin’s gift of the Shards—for his own personal vendetta.
AP: Are the shards that kind of obligation though? Does he have to defend Alethkar because they gave him a magic sword & armor? Or shouldn’t he use the tools of his oppressors against them? He totally has a personal vendetta, but again, it’s for very good reason. They killed his family. Made him a slave. Sent him on suicide missions. And he’s just supposed to forgive & forget? Bridge Four started by being defiant. And Moash still is.
AA: But Alethkar didn’t give him a magic sword and armor. Kaladin did—and Moash was fully prepared to use that gift to kill Kaladin for the sake of getting at Elhokar. Back in WoR, he had manipulated Kaladin into not reporting his treachery by framing it as “You’d turn on a member of Bridge Four?” Mere weeks later, though, he tried to kill Kaladin for the fulfillment of his personal agenda. “Turn on a member of Bridge Four” you say, Moash? Nope. I can’t accept that one man’s personal vendetta (which I don’t see as completely justified anyway) gives him the right to go around wreaking vigilante justice on anyone—guard, king, citylord, slave, or friend. I don’t buy it. He’s not doing it for the sake of bringing down an unjust system. He just wants to kill Elhokar—for something which in my view was partly his own fault.
AP: Again, I don’t think it was his fault. He does also talk very clearly in WoK about wanting to replace the lighteyes, so I don’t think it’s 100% personal, but that’s definitely a big component. But then so is the whole war on the Shattered Plains in the first place. And no one is blaming the Alethi for causing a Desolation because they didn’t just stay home. Also, let’s be super clear, I’m not saying that Moash’s vigilante actions are just, but that he’s not measurably worse than other characters in the series who have done similar things and I totally get where his motivations are here. There are vanishingly few characters in this series that have a totally clear moral compass, and it’s really one of the things I love about the books. They show people being people, in conflict with other people being people.
AA: We can certainly agree on those last two sentences! It’s one of the things I love about this series—the characters are realistic. Yes, including Moash.
With a shrug he tossed aside his spear. He summoned his Blade. After all those years dreaming of one of these he’d finally received one. Kaladin had given it to him. And what good had come of it? He obviously couldn’t be trusted with such a weapon.
AP: Well, he was defiant until this moment. This, to me, is where he clearly cuts ties with Alethkar. But that’s a story for next week!
Arresting Artwork
This selection from Navani’s notebook is titled “Ship Designs.” The notations read, in order,
“Too fanciful ha?”
“Ask Rushu how to keep the mast from ripping off.”
“Jasnah’s favorite.”
AA: Presumably, this is related to the discussion Navani is having with the engineer in the red dress about the sailing fabrials. I wonder if we’ll get a chance to see these constructed in the next book!
AP: These are really cool. Very steampunk. Fabri-punk? Is that a thing?
AA: I just noticed—Jasnah’s favorite looks like a one-man fighter. How appropriate.
Quality Quotations
“The classic scholars didn’t just draw. The Oilsworn knew mathematics—he created the study of ratios in art.
AA: Sort of a cross between da Vinci and Fibonacci?
[Dalinar] settled down on a stool outside the ring. He looked like a warhorse trying to perch on a stand meant for a show pony.
* * *
Look close at a given person, and you’d see their uniqueness—see that they didn’t quite match whatever broad category you’d first put them in.
AP: I think this quote is really fitting for this week, with both Renarin and Moash.
Renarin shrugged. “I’ve found the best way to avoid doing what Jasnah says is to not be around when she’s looking for someone to give orders to.”
Well. That was a long one, and I still feel like there was so much more we could have talked about. Many, many thanks to Aubree for joining me this week! And she’ll be back next week, too, because we’re going to read Chapters 45 and 46—Moash and Skar. There will be further debate; count on it.
Alice is oddly relieved to be getting back to cool, rainy weather. Must be acclimated to Seattle, or something weird like that. She’s also looking forward to the release of the Legion trilogy next week! (Also… Skyward is coming in a couple of months… have you preordered it yet?)
Aubree is definitely not three owls in a raincoat.
AP makes a lot of good points, but I still don’t like Moash the person because of emotions. Moash the character is a great foil for Kaladin and I hope he sticks around for us to hate for many books to come.
Thanks for joining today, Aubree. You plan on sticking around for the Moash chapters throughout?
I happen to be in the middle about Moash. He’s had trauma, some of it self-inflicted, sure, but some of it not. I see a bit of survivor’s guilt in him, too: that whole irrational “If I was there, it wouldn’t have happened that way” thought. His fixation on Elhokar is his way of handling his misplaced guilt. In today’s scene, I did see some hints at self-realization, where he looked at himself and his situation and didn’t like what he saw.
OTOH, he had another family, one who welcomed, loved and respected him for who he was. That family he failed and betrayed six ways to Sunday, and don’t have any sympathy for him on that front.
P.S. That’s EXACTLY what three owls in a raincoat would say!
How do you guys know what the notations on the drawing say? What am I missing?
Gaz was in a bad spot and acted badly. I think he has a gambling problem which is why he deserted. While he’s still responsible for his actions, I think when people do bad things because they are in a bad place empathy and compassion are a reasonable response. And that informs my reaction to Dalinar, too. It doesn’t mean that people shouldn’t be censored or punished, however.
Moash wasn’t in a bad place. Ignoring the social implications of getting a shardblade, he had friends, community, and a purpose. He deliberately chose to abandon it all in pursuit of vengeance. Maybe I’ll manage empathy and compassion eventually (I did for Setheris, of all fictional people) but right now I just hate him.
For me it is not about comparing which character is worst or better. I like to try and get into the character’s head and understand them and their motivation and for Moash I agree with Aubree that for him, his feelings are valid. Now to be clear I am not saying that his reasons are right but again for him they are valid. For Moash the only point of conflict was Kaladin opposing his decisions. This confuses Moash. If you notice, most of his guilt regarding Bridge 4 and Kaladin was coming into conflict with them period. Not due to the disagreement on ideology. Not Their fundamental beliefs. It was betrayal because Moash took an action that Kaladin told him not to and it resulted in them fighting. That is why I feel Moash continues to pursue Elhokar’s death. He didn’t see that as the betrayal. He still thinks his reasoning is valid based on what occurred. That is why I commented in a prior thread how for Moash, his later actions are him seeking redemption. I am not commenting on whether he will or will not have redemption, nor whether or not he is worthy of such. Just that the character himself views the actions he is taking as a form of personal redemption. It is all the more profound and painful to watch how different redemption can be viewed from individual to individual.
edit:I would also add that with Gaz, he was put in the unenviable position of ordering around men he knew were going to die. Just like all the bridgemen originally didn’t get to know each other nor each others names because probably tomorrow that person would be dead, I think Gaz desensitized himself. It was easier to treat the bridgemen poorly and dehumanize them, than empathize and know you are consciously sending them to their death. Add to the fact he had the crummy lighteyed guy over him and I can see why he acted the way he did. Not excusing his actions, but I can understand it.
edit 2: I would also like to add I think the reason Jasnah likes the final illustration is it is the one that is the most aerodynamic. All other designs are mimicking ships sailing through the water.
I’d like to thank Ms. Pham for pointing out that Alethi society considers vengeance a sacred duty; the original cause of the war against the Parshendi was that the Singers murdered the Alethi king. All of Alethkar was supposed to join together in avenging Gavilar, even though the Parshendi who ordered his assassination were already dead.
Moash quite reasonably believes that he has a responsibility to avenge his grandparents. He doesn’t care about “law”, because no one else in Alethkar does, either. Gavilar had the “right” to be Highprince Kholin because he killed his way to the princedom, and then he became king by climbing over the bodies of anyone who stood in his way. If might makes right, then Moash has the right to kill Elkohar if he had the strength to succeed, and he has a duty to his grandparents to make the attempt.
Of course, Gavilar was a lighteyed king, and Elkohar’s grandparents were mere darkeyes. It’s funny how vengeance is only righteous when a powerful lighteyes was killed.
@@.-@ noblehunter
Moash’s duty to stand by his friends didn’t erase his responsibility to avenge his grandparents. If someone murdered your family, you’d probably want revenge, and you didn’t grow up in a society that approves of taking justice into your own hands.
Re:Gaz
I think the difference is that in WoK, we only saw him through the POV of a guy who had every reason to hate him from the beginning.
Shallan’s introduction to him was much more benign, so we see the sillier, less homicidal parts of him.
@6 I doubt Alethi society allows for darkeyes to take justice into their own hands. The High Princes are explicitly playing by a different set of rules than even lower-ranked lighteyes, let alone the peasants. Though I think that part of my antipathy towards Moash is that I tend to recognize a right to vengeance (as a motivation for fictional characters) but I still think Moash was out of line. So a bit of cognitive dissonance that would be resolved if he’d go die in a fire.
ETA: Welcome to a special Stormlight Archive episode of Noblehunter and dtupllos where we argue about the specific details of more or less terrible societies.
Gaz is redeemable, but I’m curious where the story goes with him. He doesn’t seem like he’d be a surgebinder candidate.
Moash is irredeemable to me, but I can see a sort of redemption. As AA said, Moash tried to kill Kaladin. I can understand his reasoning against Elkohar, regardless of whether I think he was right, but I can’t forgive him for actually attacking Kaladin. If is wasn’t for Kaladin’s own acknowledgement of third Ideal, he would be dead. There’s really no “ifs and buts” about it. I’d argue the personal betrayal, given that Kaladin was – by his own admission, i think – his best friend, is a worse action than when he actually kills Elkohar. As soulsaviour(@1) said, he’s a foil for Kaladin, but I don’t think he ever becomes truly evil. Sure, he’s murdering people*, but it doesn’t feel like he’s going to become young Dalinar or Anakin for the other side. That being said, i think that’s how his story ends – he’ll end up sacrificing himself at the end to save someone/something and ”redeem” himself.
I do think that it’s a bit amusing that Szeth, who has murdered who knows how many people, is going to end up as the anti-hero.
*This sounds really bad, but his kill count is really only two people. Elkohar and Jezrien (cognitive shadow). So, like one and a half.
@6, dptullos – I’m all for vengeance, but you don’t get to try kill your friends to get it and retain the moral ground.
@8 noblehunter
Agreed. Alethi society claims that vengeance is a holy duty, and that everyone should be willing to go fight a war against the Parshendi for killing the King. At the same time, the authorities also claim that darkeyes have no right or duty to take revenge, and should simply be ready to kill or die when their betters command it. There’s a definite double standard here.
Moash refuses to acknowledge Elkohar as a superior being, and insists on treating him the same way he would treat a darkeyes who kidnapped and murdered his grandparents. This is not unreasonable. Moash is still Alethi, even if he doesn’t buy into their class system, and he has very Alethi ideas about an “eye for an eye”.
@9 Keyblazing
Moash’s ethical system is flawed, but he sincerely wants to repay good for good and evil for evil. Elkohar is his enemy, so he feels no guilt over trying to kill him; Kaladin was nothing but good to Moash, so he’s consumed with remorse for attacking his best friend and captain.
For me, Moash is irredeemable (except that this is Sanderson we’re talking about, so that is not guaranteed).
Yes, he is a victim in some ways, and yes, Vorinism/Alethi society are extremely messed up, but that does not excuse Moash’s behavior. I can understand revenge, but I cannot understand continuing to seek it at the cost of what he does later. He is motivated entirely by personal considerations, and allows that to take precedence over anything else.
His betrayal of Kaladin is so awful. Moash is accepted and welcomed into a family of fellow sufferers, given the chance to build a better life, made a part of a special group, and then he betrays all of that. For me, he was irredeemable from the moment he was willing to kill Kaladin. There is absolutely no excuse or mitigation for killing the man who saved his life, offered him friendship, and showed him how to be better than the system they were trapped in. And he even uses Kaladin’s gift against him!
Then there is his murder of Elkohar , also unforgivable in my opinion. Regardless of whatever Elkohar did in the past, he was actively working to be a better person (though Moash did not know that) and was freaking holding his young son!
Moash leaves a young boy parentless to revenge the same thing being done to him. And after that, Moash actively chooses evil (Odium), turning his back on any good.
I feel pretty strongly, as you can probably tell. ;)
Thank you Aubree for presenting another viewpoint! I found your comments interesting.
Edit: about Gaz. I really hated him in WOK but came to not hate him quite as much in WOR and now in OB. And the POV we got early on about his vision made me hate him a little less.
I have to ask. Where did Danlan go after the failed assignation attempt? She did not leave with Moash and Graves and was not with them during Chapter 43. I cannot imagine she went to Urithiru. Kaladin knows she was part of the plot to assassinate Elhokar. I also wonder if she is a member of the Diagram or merely a “patriot” that Graves recruited.
Any theories as to why the Fused want Shardblades and Plate. I think it is more than they want to make sure the humans do not have access to them. However, I cannot think of a more sophisticated reason.
Alice and Aubree. An important thing to remember about the Diagram. It is only as useful as the people who interpret the Diagram are competent. If those who interpret the Diagram actually misinterpret passages, that is a failing of the interpreters, not the Diagram itself. I am reminded of a statement a character in Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time series said about prophecy. I will paraphrase it. The character said that many times, prophecy is only clear after-the-fact. That is certainly the case with interpretations of the Diagram.
Alice: I still cannot stand Gaz. I would not have been disappointed someone from Bridge 4 had actually carried Gaz into the air and dropped him to the ground from 1,000 feet. However, I am in complete agreement with you as to Moash and the lack of redeeming qualities he has. And it will only get worse throughout OB.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
First – Welcome Aubree!! Thanks for bringing the other side of the coin to light. Or showing the fans that aren’t saying F**k Moash, that they are not alone! And represented on the Beta team.
Second – I looked up my first reactions to Moash. While I was very grumbly at him during his “I miss Bridge 4” bits, I was very unclear on where Sanderson was taking him. But like Alice, I kept thinking he takes no responsibly for his own actions or role he played in his life choices. While I’ve not moved totally to Aubree’s side of the spectrum, I do not say F**k him anymore either. Unless it’s at the really fun Sunday Toast we had a JordanCon this year.
I know Elkohar screwed up in regards to Moash’s grandparents. Yet it always struck me as his anger allotment was unbalanced. I never heard him express as much anger at Roshone. Elkohar in this case was a bad judge. But Roshone’s direct actions caused the imprisonment.
Guess it was partially a case of “the one I can see in front of me.”
And it always struck me that when Kaladin tried to talk to Dalinar about the issues – Dalinar was able to say “The Roshone affair” – NOT, which case? It meant to me that Elkohar learned. Being a 19 yo kid with too much power takes learning.
Shallan’s chapter: So many emotions the first time I read it. Yelling at both Shallan & Veil.
It was also the LAST time I could love Dalinar unconditionally. Seriously, his moment of trying to be a good Daddy to Renarin left me in happy tears. By the end of part 3 – so many complex feelings. No more unconditional love for Dalinar, much more guarded about him.
@@@@@ Austin: There is a translation key to Alethi women’s script on the 17th shard. Some people have trained themselves to read and write it like English. One of them is on the Beta team. She wrote me a letter I still can’t read, because I’ve not had the time to translate.
You two seem to keep the debate friendly, so it becomes fun to read. Even if it is truly about terrible societies. :-(
At Mods, the reread is not updated in the “New in series” tab.
And here I’d gotten the impression that I was just about the only Sanderfan who didn’t loathe Moash with every thread of my being.
It might just be that I have a hard time seeing someone as a complete monster when I’ve been in their head, but Moash has always felt tragic to me. He’s what Kaladin could have become so easily— he’s a Kaladin who doesn’t believe in redemption. So he can’t conceive of Elhokar becoming a better man, can’t imagine society becoming, in some small way, less unfair. And when he screws up, he continues making bad decisions because he can’t forgive himself.
Yes, he’s still a bad guy. But he’s a bad guy I can pity.
I need someone who can handle this, she thought. A scholar. Part of me can become a scholar. Not Veil, or Brightness Radiant. But someone—
Having just read Legion, I can’t help but see the parallels between Stephen Leeds and a potential Shallan-who-creates-new-personalites-for-everything. With the major caveat that Stephen can compensate for his issues and live a more-or-less functional life. I think that if Shallan gave in to the temptation to make a new personality for every situation, she’d be fractured beyond repair.
Theoretically, they have to be willing to accept the “bonding,” but in the one scene we’ll get, they clearly don’t realize that the Fused only need their bodies, and their souls get chucked into the Beyond.
Venli & co were some of first to be used as Desolation fodder, though. At some point, singers are going to start noticing that their friends who went out to… whatever they’re being told they’re doing… aren’t coming back. And hey, coincidentally there are a bunch of new Fused walking around! I think they’ll figure it out eventually.
AA: Since the subject came up just recently, I’ll mention that this is the first of the two conversations where the word “deevy” is used.
*waves* I still think the use of “deevy” here sounds awkward. We’ve never heard anyone use it before, and now two different people are saying it in the same book. Even just this one time, the conversation basically screams “LOOK AT THE NEW WORD I MADE UP!” rather than flowing organically from the conversation. At least that’s how it comes off to me, YMMV.
Last week I complained about Lift saying it, but I’ve had a thought since. Lift is from another city on the other side of the continent that speaks a different language and she’s using Alethi slang… maybe that scene was meant to showcase the linguistic magic hinted at in Edgedancer. Maybe the whole point of Deevy Scene #1 was to set up Deevy scene #2, so that we could see her in the main canon picking up words she shouldn’t know. In which case, I still find DS#1 clunky, but I withdraw most of my complaints about DS#2.
In another epic fantasy novel, Moash would be the hero.
Reminds me of what Brandon has said about Kelsier and Denth.
@@@@@#3: Some fans with a lot of time on their hands have deciphered the woman’s script.
@14 – Fixed, thanks!
Ah Dalinar… I know this scene where Dalinar comes in support of Renarin’s new endeavor in attempting to become a scholar is one of many readers favorites and do not get me wrong: it is an amazing scene. Once you know how Dalinar had literally ignored the existence of Renarin for thirteen years, seeing him genuinely want to support his disabled son, giving his silent approval of the boy’s choices, acknowledging his son’s strengths differ from his own was a blessing and definitely helps redeem Dalinar. This scene causes my heart to twinge each time I read it for reasons which are personal to me and of no interest to this re-read. I however couldn’t help from saying how melancolious it makes me feel to read it.
On another set of ideas, I do wish Renarin would speak up for himself instead of relying on his family to constantly take up his defense. No one is going to respect him until he manages to do this on his own. Hopefully, his last scenes will give him more courage to stand up more often. Defying his brother surely was a strong moment for him even if we aren’t seeing it from his viewpoint.
It is no hidden fact I have somewhat developped more sympathy, during my re-read, for Moash than I have for young Dalinar. This does not mean I am excusing Moash’s actions, I am not not. Revenge, while understandable, rarely makes for the right course of action and, in this case, it seems obvious to me Moash jumps into it due to an inability to see how complex the world actually is. For him, things are simple. The King ordered his grand-parents to be sent (unjustly) to prison where they died. For now on and then, the King represented the symbol of everything which Moash finds wrong within the Alethi society. Those feelings are exacerbate as his own encouters with the lighteyes solved themselves rather poorly if not dramatically.
Hence, the King kept on being labeled, still within Moash’s mind, as the root cause for the injustice he lives in. I need to point right here how Moash, unlike Kaladin, never had the opportunity to interact with Elhokar on a one on one basis. He never got to humanize the man, to see him as a fellow human being with his own weaknesses: all he ever saw was the crown. And knowing how hard it was for Kaladin to start seeing Elhokar as a man who is trying as opposed to the root cause of his own miseries, can we really blame Moash for not making the same mental leap? Especially given he has no Syl to help him sort things out nor did he ever get to see the King as “just a man”?
After re-reading the book, I found I couldn’t. It doesn’t make Moash’s actions right. He does ultimately sides with the enemy faction, he does refuse to take responsibility for everything he has done, he does pick the easiest way out and I do think he is being groomed to replace Dalinar as Odium’s Champion, but it doesn’t change the fact Moash was, even if for a while, standing on the right side of morality. By this, I do not mean it is right to fight your friend, but given how fractured Alethi society is, being told his duty was to protect the one man he sees as responsible for keeping it this way surely pushed on some very deep buttons. I instead mean the fight for a more equalitarian system where people wouldn’t be treated based on their eye color is rightful. The desire to get rid of this classism is also right. The means interlocked with vengence Moash uses to try to get to his ends aren’t.
I however agree with however said, had the narrative been different, Moash would be the hero. Yes. I said the same about Tanalan. He fired a rebellion against a King who ascended to his throne by killing anyone who opposed him. For his point of view, Gavilar is the aggressor. So far, nothing in the narrative as disabused me into not thinking the Kholins started up as the antagonists and the bad guys. Hence Tanalan, Moash, in another story, they would be the heroes.
I don’t have any pity for Gaz, but I do think it is entirely plausible he tried to dehumanize the bridgemen because he knew his job was to send them to their death. No one should enjoy being given this position which is probably just one step above from carrying the bridges himself.
I also agree Shallan’s desire to learn was her most endearing quality, back in WoK/WoR. The fact she no longer has it did serve to make her narrative less engaging within OB, at least for me. Here scenes with Renarin made me think of how they were the fandom’s favorite ship prior to WoR’s release. It made me smile to think on this.
@11 ladyrian
The main character of Oathbringer has murdered a great many fathers and young children, yet most readers seem to enjoy his redemption story.
@15 necessary_eagle
Good points about Moash’s fatalism. He’s so convinced that nothing can ever be fixed that he doesn’t even bother to try.
@17 Gepeto
Actually, Gavilar isn’t even the rightful Highprince Kholin. He usurped the princedom before he conquered Alethkar.
The “unification” of Alethkar was nothing more than a family of usurpers deciding that they’d like to murder their way to being in charge of the kingdom. As Tanalan points out, Gavilar has no legal claim to rule the Rift, and they haven’t attacked the Kholins. It’s purely a war of aggression; Gavilar wants to be king, and he doesn’t care how many people have to die as long as he can be in charge.
@9 Keyblazing not a big deal, but it’s Sour. Like a lemon.
soursavior @1 – My sentiments exactly.
Defends Moash.
Blames Vorin society for everything.
Has no concept of personal responsibility.
Ugh, I hope this is the only chapter Aubree guest-comments on.
@21 Mr. Guy
Ms. Aubree explained how Moash is a person who has reasons for making decisions, rather than a cackling villain who kicks puppies for fun.
Vorin society is to blame for a great deal. That does not mean Moash is not responsible for his actions. Responsibility is not a limited resource, and we can find a great deal of fault in both Moash’s decisions and the society that shaped those decisions.
Elkohar sent Moash’s grandparents to jail. They died in jail. Moash decided to kill him. Notably, Moash did not kill Elkohar’s son, even though he could have; his vengeance was reserved for the man who actually gave the order.
Tanalan tried to kill Dalinar. Dalinar decided to kill Tanalan, all of his soldiers, and every man, woman, and child in Rathalas.
I’m unsure of which world we live in where Moash’s vengeance is a terrible, evil, unforgivable crime, while Dalinar’s vengeance is somehow redeemable.
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In the original article:
… until he takes up an Honorblade at the end.
#6. @dptullos:
Er? (Yes, I know, but it seemed funny to me.)
#9. @Keyblazing:
As was pointed out last week, he’s already attracting spren, the things he sees moving around by looking through his missing eye. Or not, but that’s certainly what Brandon wants us to think.
#12. @AndrewHB:
Because they’re really good weapons. Why do they need any other reasons?
@21: I consider this comment to be inappropriate. As I keep advocating, there are more than one way to interpret a narrative and to read a given character. Of course, a majority of readers will despise Moash: the narrative was written to make us feel this way, but I personally find the alternate discussion, the one where we try to understand where he comes from and why he chose to act as he did considerably more interesting than merely posting #FuckMoash.
I HATED Moash on my first read. I hated not only his character, but his viewpoints. Upon re-read, I changed my mind on him. This was a nice surprise. I now find him tragic, deeply flawed, but in ways which make me feel some level of sympathy.
I, for one, also really appreciated Aubree’s addition to the reviewing team. Her voice differs than the typical ones. I was literally dreading reaching the Moash chapters because, as per other discussions, I feared it would go down into hostilities if someone so much as dared not crucify Moash on the spot. I am overly pleased to see this not only hasn’t happened yet, the reviewing team has added someone who’s views differs from the majority. This is refreshing and I really hope to read more of Aubree’s thoughts which isn’t to say I do not appreciate Alice and Lyndsey’s great work, but I did feel Aubree’s addition this week was right onto the topic.
Also, I am DEAD tired of people being bashed on for having opinions which aren’t shared by a majority or are just unpopular.
So Aubree, I really enjoyed reading you this week and I will looking forward to reading you next week.
@24 Moash taking up the honorblade strikes me as him surrendering his identity to Odium. He could be turning into a human Fused, which could put him beyond redemption as his Spiritual and Cognitive self may become too degraded to change.
It feels to me like Moash is intended as a foil to various characters on the heroic side. In WoR, he was a foil to Kaladin. Both became obsessed with vengeance, but Kaladin was eventually able to see that what he was doing was wrong and Moash wasn’t. And then here in Oathbringer, Moash becomes a foil to Dalinar. Both did horrible things, but Dalinar accepts responsibility for what he did and tries to become a better person, while Moash doesn’t.
I don’t think Moash is going to be redeemed, not because what he’s done is too atrocious or unforgiveable, but because I don’t think he’s capable of wanting to be redeemed anymore. Now, I may be wrong. Maybe Moash is not too far gone to make the effort and turn back towards the Light. But with the mentions of Odium “taking his pain”, it feels like he may have passed the point where he can desire to be redeemed.
I mean, it bees a city.… It does what the city is.…
I know it is purely coincidental, but this reminds me the High Imperial a little …
I absolutely hated Moash after he tried to kill Kaladin. Reading this, a new hope emerged. I wanted to keep hating him, but instead, I started to like him again and was to hope he’ll find a way to redeem himself. But after he had the audacity to give Kal the Bridge Four salute after what he just did … Nope, no forgiveness from me. But it was real interesting to read Aubree’s take on the defensive side.
Count me in among those who felt so warm and happy over Shallan and Renarin’s bonding, and also how Dalinar just showing up made Renarin feel so much better. He deserves this. And he’s totally right about the tower. Also, it was indeed a good reminder that not only women are bound by the Vorin restrictions, but men as well.
As Alice, I also had to take a double take, but then cracked up about the mean. Pattern is the best!
noblehunter @@.-@, I was going to ask how did you manage to find compassion for Setheris, but then realized that compared to some, he actually isn’t the worst. I might even have found a little pity for him, myself.
RE: “bees a city”
I first read the book back in January or February, so for me it is too soon to do a personal reread. However, reading was long enough in the past that I forget or don’t note some things in the text, such as this. So, forgive me if I ramble, misstate something, or make unexplained leaps in logic.
If the Cosmere books are “translations” from the original language to English, there is major significance to the phrase “bees a city”. The only usage I know of for “bee” is in reference to the insect (which doesn’t exist on Roshar, hence Renarin’s trouble explaining the term), so the phrase implies that Urithru operates in someway as a hive. This matters because hives need an intelligence behind them to function properly, generally a queen.
This is different than a normal fabrial because, as far as I can tell, the spren trapped in crystals that power those don’t have any say in how the fabrial functions. If this is the case, it will take more than a massively powerful gem (possibly one that contains an Unmade) to get the city to function once again. It will take an active intelligence to, at least, reset the city and possibly direct how it is supposed to function (since I have no idea how self-sustaining the city is once it is running correctly). For that matter, it may be that the meeting room at the top of Urithru (the one that has the stands for spren) was designed as the control center where all the Radiant orders together could set the controls (making it more of a hive mind than a queen bee running things).
Real hives don’t have a hive mind. The “queen” doesn’t rule anything, she just happens to be the reproductive organ of the swarm organism.
@18 dptullos:
Yes, absolutely true. Sanderson has done a really good job of making things complex.
I admit there is somewhat of a double-standard. We saw Moash turn against a character we were emotionally invested in, while we came to like and care about Dalinar before we found out about his evil past, so there is definitely an emotional component.
Arguments have been made in previous posts about the difference between their crimes, and while Dalinar’s is on a scale far above Moash’s so far, I think the key differences are that 1. Dalinar never deliberately betrayed someone close to him. and 2. Moash has deliberately turned to the side of evil, joining Odium. As @27 Aeshdan wrote, Dalinar chooses to take responsibility and do better. Oathbringer is a public confession of his sins. Moash, on the other hand, refuses to accept his guilt and responsibility, and chooses to go further into evil.
I think the reason Moash does not feel responsibility is because he does not feel what he was and is doing is wrong. Dalinar over time did see what he did was wrong, and then chose to take responsibility for it. That is why I feel to Moash, what he is doing with the Parshmen and Fused is personal redemption in his mind. He is taking a beaten down people under his wing and teaching them to fight, like Kaladin did for the bridgemen. I think that is why he saluted Kaladin when he killed Elhokar. Again the betrayal in his mind back in Words of Radiance was fighting Kaladin, not trying to kill Elhokar. So he didn’t see anything wrong in killing Elhokar and saluted Kaladin as if to say “I too have found people to care for and raise up as you have taught me. I salute Bridge 4 with pride”. If you do not feel like you did anything wrong, then what is there to be guilty about or responsible for?
I know Brandon has the hand-wavy explanation of “translation” for Earth terms, but how does that apply to the joke about the mean? Apparently it’s the same mathematical concept as the one here on Earth, and that word is also used to describe someone, just like on Earth. It’s like the “toh” joke Robert Jordan used in Wheel of Time. Or Brandon’s “in-slut” joke in an earlier book. It’s one thing to say the language is being translated, it’s another to make jokes about the sound of the words. Anyways, that sort of thing bugs me.
@8 So a bit of cognitive dissonance that would be resolved if he’d go die in a fire.
This is the greatest thing. I’ll post again if I have something actually constructive to add, but I just wanted you to know that this line completely gets how I feel about Moash.
KefkaPalazzo @2 – “ I see a bit of survivor’s guilt in him, too: that whole irrational ‘If I was there, it wouldn’t have happened that way’ thought.” See, that’s exactly what I don’t see. No guilt at all over the fact that he wasn’t there to help. Everything is someone else’s fault, not any of it his. In this chapter, there’s a little self-awareness in that he knows he betrayed Bridge Four, but he still blames it on other people.
Austin @3 – I looked it up on the Coppermind! Still haven’t taken the time to learn the script myself, but I’ll work on that one of these days.
noblehunter @@.-@ – Yep.
AndrewHB @12 – So far, we haven’t seen Danlan again. Hmmm. Whether we’ll see her again probably depends on whether she was an actual member of the Diagram or not, I’d guess.
I doubt the Fused themselves can use the Plate, but they can certainly use the Shardblades. The Plate may be mostly a matter of removing it from the humans, or they may be holding it for the time when “worthy humans” join their side. Not many of the Singers would have any need of it, certainly.
About Gaz… I don’t exactly have warm fuzzies about him, but I can accept the possibility that he might become a better person. In fact, I think we’ve been seeing that, though he has a long way to go to really be likable. But as I’ve said about several characters, Gaz owns his responsibility for having made bad decisions, and is grateful for Shallan giving him a second chance. Moash had many good things handed to him by the effort and generosity of others, and he shows precious little gratitude for any of it.
necessary_eagle @15 – “And here I’d gotten the impression that I was just about the only Sanderfan who didn’t loathe Moash with every thread of my being.” That’s one of the reasons we asked Aubree to join us. Lyn and I feel very much the same way about Moash, but we know others among the beta readers who feel differently. This seemed a good way to get a more balanced discussion in the reread posts.
“So he can’t conceive of Elhokar becoming a better man, can’t imagine society becoming, in some small way, less unfair.” To go along with that, it seems he can’t conceive of himself becoming in any way different, either. He had opportunities few people – dark-eyed or light-eyed – in their society ever have, but it makes no difference. It’s pitiable, but it doesn’t make me like him any better.
@many – After a little more research, I can say with some confidence that Elhokar was not less than 17 and certainly not more than barely-19 at the time of the Roshone affair.
Oh, and let me clarify something: Aubree will be joining us for every chapter of the Moash Novelette, personal life permitting. She and I will argue like crazy every time, most likely, but we can do that and still be friends. If you have a problem with that, you may want to consider sitting it out for those chapters, because it’s not changing. There are enough places IRL where people refuse to tolerate anyone who disagrees with them; this reread will not become one of them. Disagree all you like. Try to articulate your arguments, or even just admit that your view is based solely on emotion, if you must. But whatever you do, do not attack people who disagree with you just because you disagree. That’s lame and pathetic and has no place in this venue.
I am a #F**kMoash guy. I appreciate the arguments of those who feel differently than I do. I acknowledge that Moash’s circumstances were not ideal. I have been swayed somewhat by the fact that Alethi society is the absolute worst and could be a contributing factor in his wretchedness. Still, screw that guy.
Two things stick in my craw concerning Moash and they are related points. For those familiar with my commentary on this forum, you know that betrayal is a hot button topic for me. Moash’s actions aren’t just one instance of betrayal but a constant reoccurance. And not just general betrayal. Look at the person he is betraying. Kaladin gave him life and then gave that life meaning. He gave that man a family, the means to defend himself in a war-torn world. He gave Moash status and a platform to seek justice and be a force for change had he chosen to pursue that route. Moash turns his back on opportunities the other bridge crews long for. And he keeps turning. Although he doesn’t have Syl as a personal conscience riding his shoulder he does have Kaladin’s memories. He retained the skills he was taught, could he not have retained some of the moral fiber as well?
This betrayal probably wouldn’t be so heartwrenching (and compelling, let’s be honest) if he did not display so many qualities of Windrunner ideals. He acts in ways that could easily attract an honorspren. He would have been a much better candidate than, say, The Lopen. He is so close to escaping the downward spiral and he willfully refuses because he runs away from the responsibility of his actions.
I will go so far in light of dissenting opinions of saying I wouldn’t completely reject a redemption arc for him like I may have previously. But I would likely prefer the kind of redemption where he dies soon after.
@31 ladyrian
I think Sanderson enjoys this kind of cognitive dissonance. Dalinar is introduced as a hero before we see him as a butcher; Venli is introduced as a villain before we see her as a rebel.
@37 EvilMonkey
Emotionally, I feel the betrayal of a friend is much worse that killing strangers. Logically, I don’t think that’s true.
I like Moash as a dark Windrunner.
Like Alice, this chapter originally gave me hope for Moash. I was mad at him at the end of WoR, but here it seemed he regretted what he had done to Kaladin, not about the assassination attempt itself, so perhaps he could make amends. But, as we see hints here, and more later, he puts the blame on others.
Aubree, I appreciated your thoughts. I agree with some, disagree with others. Here are two things I want to point out. First, we don’t know much about voidlight yet, so while the Fused are awful people, I think it is unfair to assume that since they don’t heal the bodies it is because they don’t care about the parsh. (I don’t think they do care, really, about the parsh, but this isn’t an example, I don’t think.) Second, I think it is too optimistic to say that Moash really is trying for positive change in Alethi society. I think he would perpetuate the exact same atrocities; he would just do them to the lighteyes. There is a discussion in WoK where he says that if he could he would make all the lighteyes suffer and do horrible jobs. Again, he would still classify people – he would just change who is on top and bottom. Moash may be justified in feeling anger and betrayal at the King and society, but he has no moral high ground based on his own attitudes.
Finally, my thoughts on the diagram. I feel like not enough credit was given to the Diagram. I view it as far superior to Nostradamous or similar things. It was a set of predictions, educated guesses, and they were remarkably good. Obviously, the further out they go to the future, the more errors there will be, but consider what they have accomplished. Taravangian successfully became king of another, far larger and powerful country by manipulating the politics there – that is huge! Further, this quote from WoR is scary!:
They were left behind…but where where where… they must be with the Shin…. Can we make to use a Truthless… Can we craft a weapon
That sure sounds like he figured out where the honor blades were and set events in motion to make Szeth who he is! That is some epic foresight and planning.
Edit: I think Dr. T actually implies he didn’t go to the nightwatcher until after Gavilar died, in which case he wouldn’t have written this until after Szeth became Truthless, but he still figure out what Szeth was and tracked him down to use him. So, I’m still giving high marks.
A couple of thoughts
Firstly, I don’t think the fused can heal themselves.
If a fused is killed with a shard blade, would they return?
I’m on Team #F’Moash, which is why I loved that “die in a fire” quote earlier in the comments. Like, okay, I get it. Life handed him a raw deal, he’s part of the underclass of a crappy society, lost his grandparents, etc…but that doesn’t give him the right to crap on people, or betray their trust. It’s something I see a lot of IRL, “This person has had a horrible ordeal, so we have to be compassionate.” Fair point. And that does give you a certain amount of latitude on behavior, but not carte blanche to just do whatever you want. I need to see them taking responsibly, recognizing bad behavior, and actively working to be better. We see none of these in Moash. So…F that guy. If he has to have a redemption, I hope it’s a last act, sacrifice sort of thing. He’s passed the point of no return for me.
Dal…man, that guy is in a league all his own here. He’s committed atrocities that should get him struck down by lightning and held up in history lessons on what not to do. So why do I still like him so much? Well, his whole responsibility taking, struggle to be better, refusing to let Odium take his pain, and making his Ideal about bearing his own burdens goes a long way. But I haven’t actually seen anyone talk about the Thrill. We learn in OB that the Thrill is a spren, who heightens the blood lust of anyone it comes in contact with. This supernatural effect matters, and I have to take this into account when considering Dalinar’s redemption. What would the Blackthorn actually have been if there was no Thrill? Would he have been as ruthless, as obsessed with combat and throwing himself into danger? Would he have had a moment where he actually contemplated killing his own brother? I really don’t think so. Dal’s journey would have been quite a bit different, IMO, had there been no Thrill. And, in the end Dal takes responsibility for that too, even though I personally think he doesn’t have to. He had no idea. It’s that strength of will and character that makes him admirable for me still, even knowing what he’s done.
Moash doesn’t have some supernatural effect that changes his behavior, and still manages to blame everyone other than himself for stuff that’s happened. So, yeah…F that guy. ;)
#40. @telema”
We see one heal himself, of Shardblade injuries, in Kaladin’s battle against Amaram and a bunch of Fused at the end of the book. I interpret things to say that only some Fused can do it.
I have to say yes, because otherwise the Heralds and Knights Radiant would have exterminated them during the millennia of Desolations.
Far out, what a depressing couple of chapters.
This was around the time I started getting really frustrated with / worried for Shallan. Why did she think she needed a persona to be a scholar? She WAS a scholar in TWoK, and so scholarly that she convinced Jasnah to consider taking her on as a ward, even before she did her Soulcasting trick. I find myself getting frustrated at characters who have such a low opinion of themselves when it is obvious they are so capable. If only her viewpoint shifted just a tiny bit she would have escaped so much of the self-inflicted struggle she goes through in this book. At this moment she’s just crying out for a five minute talk that gets her head straight – by the time she gets one from Hoid it’s way too late, and the personas have done even more harm.
And Moash….gah. I got called out for my Moash v Young Dalinar comparison a few weeks back, so I won’t go there. Moash is another character for whom a five minute chat from Hoid would have done wonders for. He is so close to getting it right, but his viewpoint, like Shallan, is just skewed enough so he continually makes the wrong choice. He longs for the closeness and morality of Bridge Four but keeps making decisions that goes against what Bridge Four stood for. @35 is right – he has all the opportunities to be a better person, his status was basically handed to him being next to Kaladin (he even gets a Shardblade), he goes from lowly bridgeman to lighteyes…and he squanders it ALL for petty revenge. Its illuminating when Kaladin went back to Hearthstone, he saw Roshone, his tormentor, and he did punch him, but then he thought – I have to be better than this. Moash NEVER thinks that at any point.
I think the worst part is, Moash has only just started his villain arc. I predict in the next book readers aren’t going to be so sympathetic or pitying towards him, since he’s no longer picking a side.
My namesake character, on the other hand…seems to have humbled himself / let himself be humbled, and I look forward to seeing how he does as a member of Shallan’s little band…as long as Shallan doesn’t keep doing my head in in future books.
The math joke is just one of the MANY indicators to me that the Cryptics are not really related to truth or lies, but to objective mathematical constants, and their fascination with ‘lies’ is them trying to quantify a qualitative property. I feel the line about the Oilsworn knowing math and the mention of the ratios in art is another subtle indicator of this, since Art is a Shallan area, and most of the foreshadowing for characters relates to stuff about them.
@41 – I actually made that exact point you did re. Dalinar and the Thrill – what’s more, he was groomed by Odium to be his Champion. However, people seem to disregard that when discussing whether Young Dalinar is more or less redeemable than Moash. Even with the Thrill, Young Dalinar still had a choice, still could have listened to Evi, still could have been a better father and husband. And when Dalinar rejects Odium, that’s his argument. Odium was influencing him, yet Dalinar accepts he still chose to do the things he did.
I agree with you though, Moash never had Odium trying to groom him, and he still makes the wrong choice every single time.
Roger @29 – you know, I think you’re the first person I’ve seen make the connection of “bees a city” to a hive. Not sure why that hasn’t come up before, other than that everyone was fixated on sorting out what he was trying to say. While birgit is correct that the queen bee doesn’t run a hive mind, it’s still true that a hive needs a queen; a queenless colony cannot survive for long. So there may be a certain subtle but intentional parallel there.
I had to go look back at the beta comments to make sure no one had suggested it there, and ran across my comment responding to someone wondering what a city built for Radiants would do.
“Oh, all sorts of things. When the city citys, there will be functional plumbing, motion-sensor lighting in the corridors, heat for the planters, air circulation throughout, all sorts of mod cons.” I still think so!
Austin @33 – “I know Brandon has the hand-wavy explanation of “translation” for Earth terms, but how does that apply to the joke about the mean?” I wish I could remember where I heard/read his take on that kind of joke, but I can’t, so I won’t pretend to a direct quote. But it’s much the same as when you translate from one Earth language to another. The actual wording may not translate directly, particularly with idiom, so you use a similar idiom to convey the same meaning. Sometimes, the translator will insert a similar joke because “having a joke” is more important than the specific words. For math jokes, you can either pretend that the translator found a good math joke to insert, or you can just pretend that the words mean the same in Alethi as they do in English. “Mean” has about 8 different definitions in English anyway!
EvilMonkey @37 – “I will go so far in light of dissenting opinions of saying I wouldn’t completely reject a redemption arc for him like I may have previously. But I would likely prefer the kind of redemption where he dies soon after.” Yep. That.
whitespine @39 – In order to have been involved in making Szeth who he is, Taravangian would have had to write the Diagram at least ten years ago, and had some influence with the Stone Shamans. Not impossible, but unlikely, I think.
Re: the Diagram – Remember that it has been interpreted all along, and probably modified too, because of the influence of the death rattles, which we know (and Mr. T and company also know) are caused by one of the Unmade – a servant of Odium.
Re: Moash – I’m with Alice in that if his elderly grandparents were that important to him, and he knew there was no one else to speak up for them or protect them, then he bears guilt for leaving them alone for extended periods of time in a society he knew to be cutthroat. And actually that guilt could get twisted around so that it would make him seek vengeance on an external target even more: like, by killing Elhokar, he assuages his own subconscious guilt. You do see that kind of inverted motivation in people – at least I myself have – though not in such extreme situations (i.e., not murder; usually it’s more backbiting or shunning – that kind of thing). I also agree with Alice & others that to Moash, it’s always someone else’s fault, never any of his own; unless we’re saying that he is as innocent as new-fallen snow, it’s inaccurate to see him as purely “victim.” That said, I do hope he gets a redemption arc of some kind, even one where he doesn’t “die soon after.” (I’m hoping he’ll kill Mr. T or Malata, but I am ALWAYS wrong about predictions.) Also, it’s probably difficult for most of us to fully empathize with life in a society that’s as stratified and hierarchical as Alethkar – we just can’t imagine what it would be like. Seems like the rural upbringing Kaladin had would have been easier and less scarring than Moash’s youth in the city.
Re: Renarin – I loved how Dalinar came to support his son in that context. It’s interesting how Shallan picked up on that – doesn’t seem like Jasnah did, but her focus was elsewhere.
@31: I wrote many posts on how I felt meeting Dalinar as a honorable man diminishes the negative impact of his past while having other characters, such as Amaram, Moash and Roshone, do lesser deeds, but ones which come at the expense of well-known sympathetical characters increases it. I do think it is deliberate from the author as I do think readers would struggle with Dalinar had the narrative been written in a different manner or if Tanalan had actually been fleshed out as a character.
@37: I have come to really enjoy The Lopen as a Radiant. I still cringe at his humor, but I have changed my views on him. Ever since I finished my re-read, I have started appreciating the work Lopen has done, under the humor and the eye rolling banter. Hence, I am not willing to say Moash would have been a better candidate than Lopen, had he chosen not to betray Bridge 4. I will admit, upon my first read, one of the reasons I disliked Moash was I felt I was reading Kaladin 2.0. His narrative felt so similar, such a repetition, I couldn’t get into. Of course, it ends up differing, but without this knowledge of future plot development, Moas was hard to… well… enjoy. On re-read, I could really appreciate more what Brandon was attempting to do.
Despite my… sympathies for Moash, I do not root for a redemption narrative. I feel his narrative will be more powerful if it embraces the downward spiral, but Brandon may have other ideas. I also think the circumstances which led Dalinar to grow into a better man were unique… and are unlikely to reproduce themselves.
@41: Moash hears a voice in his head constantly telling not to take responsibilities for his actions. He tries, kind of, he does reflect on it, kind of, but each time, there is this other voice telling him to drop it. Arguably not the same as the Thrill, but let’s say Moash was under bad influences. Things might have been different if he hadn’t end up with the Fused. In fact, Moash just feels to me as a character who could have turned completely differently had circumstances been different.
Perhaps it takes a rare person, such as Kaladin, to grow despite the hardship, to learn to let go of his anger, but Moash feels so realistic…. That’s when I changed my mind on him, when I started to ask myself how would I feel if I were him? Could I work to protect the man I held responsible for my family’s death? I am honestly not sure what I would have done.
@45: I would argue Odium is grooming Moash, by the end of OB… but others may disagree.
F**k Moash. Nothing else to add. F**k this guy.
After Dalinar finding strnength to reject Odium, an Eternal Divinity who offered him an absolute freedom from guilt and responsibility, and choosing to live with pain of what he had done (which was’t even his fault imho), this little piece of traitor doesn’t deserve redemption or compassion.
@30 birgit
While the queen may not lead the hive (which is part of why I put in that initial disclaimer), I still think the quote fits the concept of a hive mind (which would equally be a problem to explain in a world without insects or hives). So, is there conceptually something I am missing?
@46 Wetlandernw
I’m truly surprised no one else mentioned it before. That makes me like the idea even more!
@47 aggie1
I’m curious as to how Moash is responsible for Roshone convincing Elkohar to send his grandparents to jail. What could he have done if he was there? He can’t fight the king, and Elkohar clearly wasn’t listening to anyone but Roshone.
Moash blames Elkohar for his grandparents’ death because Elkohar (and Roshone) are responsible for his grandparents’ death. He naturally wants revenge.
@49 lordruler
When Dalinar was Moash’s age, he was rampaging across Alethkar, waging aggressive, unprovoked war against his neighbors to satisfy his addiction to murder. You seem to believe that Future Moash will be exactly the same as Present Moash, but Old Dalinar is obviously not the same as Young Dalinar.
The word “traitor” is very revealing. Dalinar is a mass murderer, but the people he killed aren’t main characters; Moash tried to murder his friend Kaladin, so he’s unforgivable and evil. Killing ten thousand strangers is not somehow morally superior to murdering a single friend.
I agree that Moash doesn’t “deserve” redemption or compassion. But Young Dalinar didn’t “deserve” anything more than a quick, humane execution for his many crimes. Instead, he received a second chance that he absolutely didn’t deserve, and he did something worthwhile with it.
51
I don’t care about Kaladin at all and Moash’s attempt to murder him doesn’t mean much for me. Sorry, your “theory” about killing main characters/unnamed characters doesn’t work or at least it doesn’t work with me.
When Dalinar was Moash’s age we was under strong Odium’s influence and was grooming to be his nine-shadow champion since he was a teenager.
“Something worthwile” you mean him becoming a saviour of Roshar from Odium’s forces?
Thanks Alice and Aubree; I think it’s great to get different views on Moash, and the comment section has been wonderfully diverse and complex about him. On the one hand I sympathize with him because of his grandparents and the suckiness of justice for Alethi darkeyes, and on the other hand the amount of betrayal he engages in to gain his revenge pisses me off.
So, other random thoughts on the chapters:
I think it’s cute that Bridge Four seems to have made a game out of trying to get Kaladin to smile.
Stormwardens are weird. It is cool and useful that they predict storms, but “digitology” what? And do they try to use wind to predict the future? Makes me wonder about Restares, the elusive stormwarden Son of Honor. Was he all like “Gavilar, I feel a breeze– let’s start a Desolation! Amaram, there’s a draft in here– quick, slaughter your loyal men and steal those Shards!”
So is that Tarah and her father in the bar? Seems unlikely, given how far away Mourn’s Vault is from the Shattered Plains.
Did Veil and Radiant ever think of Shallan as a separate person before Shallan’s encounter with Re-Shephir? I know Shallan sometimes thought of them as separate from her, but I don’t remember it being mutual.
@52 lordruler
Most posters blame Moash for betraying Kaladin, who had been nothing but good to him. If you’re not blaming Moash for betraying his friend Kaladin, what are you blaming him for? Trying to kill a man who had sent his grandparents to the dungeon to die?
Odium’s influence is not mind control. He pushed Dalinar to do what Dalinar already wanted to do, while Dalinar systematically ignored his brother, his wife, and everyone else who influenced him to be more than a murder junkie. The entire conclusion of Oathbringer is about Dalinar accepting that he is, in fact, responsible for his numerous and horrible crimes against humanity. Please stop trying to take that away from him.
For all we know, Moash is entirely capable of becoming a heroic savior of Roshar, too. Why does Dalinar get a second chance to do something good with his life, but not Moash?
Venli infected her own people with voidspren out of pride and personal ambition. She summoned the Final Desolation. But as of the end of Oathbringer, she’s a Radiant and an important member of Team Save the World.
What makes Moash’s crimes so much magically worse than Dalinar’s or Venli’s? If it’s not his betrayal of Kaladin, what makes him so especially awful that he couldn’t ever receive a second chance?
I think it’s harder in my opinion to get or deserve redemption when the act is betrayal instead of wanton slaughter on a battlefield. My opinion true, but it’s kinda like Littlefinger on GOT. In order to fight effectively against the forces of evil or really any coordinated fighting effort one needs to trust your allies. If your ally is a known betrayer then you are foolish if half your attention isn’t devoted to watching that guy. Going into battle with your attention split is a good way to die. Lose lose situation. Foolish to trust a person of uncertain loyalty at your back, deadly if attention isn’t focused on the task at hand.
Dalinar killed thousands and tens of thousands on the battlefield. Enemy combatants for a given value of enemy. But he was loyal to his allies. We can argue that the Kholin cause was unjust, a polite veneer to cover what basically amounts to a power grab. Conquest is an ugly business and Dalinar was quite good at it. That they were mostly the faceless masses surely factors into our forgiveness of Dalinar and his ignoble past. But despite his faults he was still honest. If he wanted you dead he wouldn’t stoop to betrayal, he’d challenge you to your face. I appreciate that more than knives in the dark or turning your back on those you are supposed to be protecting.
Btw, I’m not liking Venli either, although her sin was different. She wanted power, the power to defeat those who would exterminate her people. The problem with her was that she didn’t just want to defeat the enemy, she wanted to be the reason they won. So she reached for a power that her legends warned was dangerous. Pride started her down the wrong path but she actively seeks atonement and isn’t compounding her ruinous choices. For that reason I like her more than Moash. Not much more but definitely more than Moash.
@54 – I’m just curious- is Moash like your favourite character? Or is this more that everyone deserves a second chance? I haven’t seen anyone defend him / his right to redemption as much as you have.
This is a character that Brandon has positioned to be one of the big bads of the next few books, someone who is likely to do some really heinous stuff. In OB, Moash remains sympathetic to many readers because he’s conflicted and there are still parts to him that could be heroic in the right situations, and he’s still trying to pick a side. At the end of OB however, it’s pretty clear he has now embraced this path of Odium – basically forgoing his humanity, almost.
Just wondering if you think you’ll be as sympathetic towards him, and if he’ll still deserve a second chance, if he goes full villain-ish in the future like I think he will.
@56 Gaz
Moash isn’t my favorite character, or one of my favorites. I’m defending him because I think that second chances shouldn’t be given or withheld based on whether we like someone.
Dalinar gets a second chance after butchering Rathalas. Does he deserve it? Venli gets a second chance after summoning the apocalypse. Does she deserve it? Oathbringer has two protagonists who have committed terrible, seemingly unforgivable crimes, and both of them are allowed to live and change.
Venli embraced the path of Odium, betraying her people. She went full villain. Now she’s decided to make another choice. One of the Big Bads of WoR has become a Knight Radiant and a secret agent within Odium’s army. Venli definitely did some “really heinous stuff”; do you think she should just give up and decide that she has to be evil forever?
Moash is not somehow magically different from the other characters who served Odium, knowingly or unknowingly. He chose to serve, and he could choose not to serve. What I dislike is the implication that he’s somehow surrendered the right to change because he’s somehow just inherently evil. That’s dangerously similar to Moash’s own thinking, the belief that some people are just good while others are irreversibly worthless and terrible.
Dalinar was terrible but he is trustworthy. Whereas, once you dip into the betrayal business you become impossible to work with. Moash could do a 180 and decide to play for Team H/C again. Two problems with that. First he would have to start taking responsibility for his decisions. We see throughout the narrative that the people who take responsibility for their screwups and make the effort to do better get the benefit of doubt. Amaram, Sadeas, and Moash didn’t do that. Moash continues to blame everyone and everything else for his crummy life. But let’s say for the sake of argument that he fixes himself. Who is going to welcome him into the fold again? Before the Elkohar incident Kaladin would have, just like he forgave Teft. Now though? Not even Kal could let that pass. And he’s about the only one. Dalinar would split dude in half. And that would be a mercy compared to what Jasnah or Navani would do. You cannot fight a war with someone you cannot trust at your side.
@59: Minor point, Dalinar welcomed with opened arms the man who slaughtered his own brother merely because he walked out to him and said he was now serving him. Hence, if Moash does pull himself together, does start to take responsibility for his actions (the fact he hasn’t done it now does not imply he will never do it, let’s think on how long it took Dalinar and how much incentive he needed to start to begin to think to start changing), attracts a spren, then yes, I do think Dalinar will welcome him with opened arms, whether he killed Elhokar or not.
I also need to point out neither Jasnah nor Navani have seen fit to take it out on Szeth for having murdered Gavilar and while we could argue Navani didn’t care much for Gavilar, we have quotes which states Jasnah did care. And feels guilty. Therefore, if the Kholins can give Szeth a fresh start, then they can give anyone a fresh start.
They treating Moash differently than they treated Szeth would be applying a double-standard. It would be saying Elhokar’s life mattered more than Gavilar’s (we know it didn’t). Already, they have almost nearly declared Sadeas’s life was worth nothing and no punishment shall be given to his culprit.
Why would Moash be different?
Overall, I agree if a man such a Dalinar, if a woman such as Venli are allowed to change, to redeem themselves, despite neither of them really deserving it, then everyone can have it. Now, whether or not Moash will make better choices in the future remains to be seen, but if he does make them, then yeah, Team Save the World should welcome him with opened arms just as they did with others. Mind, they should also be careful with the man who betrayed his former unit, very careful, they shouldn’t give him their complete trust, not at first, but neither should they give it to the man responsible, in part, for the civil war in Jah Keved (though not by design) and yet they did.
@59, EvilMonkey – I mean, they “trust” Szeth and he killed Gavilar and has also killed members of Bridge Four. I definitely have mixed feelings about this. Like, I agree with you that no one should trust Moash, but it’s not like he ever cared about Alethkar. His betrayal is solely that of Kaladin and Bridge 4. I’ve never really cared for this whole betraying Roshar thing. He “killed” a Herald, yes, but it’s not like the Parshendi aren’t semi-right in all of this. And Moash isn’t going around slaughtering little kids (yet). Maybe the people who liked Elkohar feel worst, but I’ve never been that attached to him, even though his death scene is really brutal.
@60, Gepeto – beat me to it. Well said.
@58, lordruler – i’m a little confused by your post. Dalinar burned a city. He burned children. War is war, but those kids weren’t accidental casualties on a unnatural battlefield. He was under Odium’s influence, but it was Dalinar’s decision. Moash’s betrayal sucks, but that’s one death technically. If you don’t care for Kaladin, then I don’t see what your issue is with Dalinar over Moash – unless it’s solely on the general aspect of betraying your friends.
@61 Keyblazing
Minor quibble. Szeth did not actually want to kill any of those people. He did it because he was ordered to. Now I am not getting into the accountability of “I was told to do it” and etc (to be clear I am not excusing his actions) because at the end of the day Szeth claims responsibility for his actions and seeks to atone (like Dalinar). I am merely pointing out as to why Team Kholin could potentially be more able to accept Szeth in their ranks than Moash. Moash voluntarily chose to attack and kill Elhokar. He wanted to do it. Szeth conversely felt at the time that he was forced to, and did not actually want to do it. So I could see the gap of acceptance being a bit wider for Moash in light of Szeth. Not saying they would not accept Moash. Just there is a difference between the why each chose to do what they do, and that could affect their reception.
edit: I would also add using EvliMonkey’s logic, Moash was apart of the group unit, and betrayed it. Szeth conversely held true to the group unit he was a part of even at the detriment of himself till it was proven wrong and betrayed him. So one would have more evidence to trust that Szeth would hold true to the mission than Moash. If we were speaking purely militarily.
edit 2: Also Taravangian confirmed to Dalinar that he was the one that controlled Szeth during later assassinations, so Team Kholin would have reason to believe Szeth when he says he only killed Gavilar because he was ordered by the parshendi who held his oathstone.
Oathbringer page 1214
Adrotagia countered “Or that we brought the singers to Urithiru. He only knows that Kharbranth controlled the assassin – and thinks that the Herald’s insanity prompted us.”
Was I the only one who was disappointed by Graves’ sudden and unceremonious death? He was introduced as such an interesting character – a supposedly relatively high-ranking Alethi with a dark-eyed wife, who was opposed to the whole eye-color-based societal order. It wasn’t clear to me if he was publicly known to own his shards, but unless everything that we have been told about him was a pack of lies, I feel like his speedy elimination was a missed opportunity. IMHO, YMMV. Also, where are the rest of the conspirators? IIRC neither the woman nor the Thaylen were among the people seen by Kaladin during his one meeting with plotters. And this is one of the reasons why I think that Kaladin’s lack of confession to the whole affair may yet turn out to be actively harmful.
I’d also point out that Moash is clearly a naturally gifted fighter, who managed to become great with the spear in just few weeks of training. Now, he was very physically fit and spear was such a beloved and wide-spread weapon iRL for a reason – it is much easier to learn to use effectively than, say, a sword. Still, nobody seems to question him or bridgemen in general, most of whom haven’t been soldiers prior, becoming proficent fighters so quickly, wheareas there were questions about Jasnah’s performance at the battle of Thaylenah being implausible. Moash kills one Fused and thinks that he can kill another of the 3 facing him with just a spear, without stormlight or surges, yet this occasioned no comments about him being overpowered…
And speaking of, he might have indeed hit his opponent’s gemheart, but my impression was that voidlight by itself doesn’t have the same healing properties as stormlight does and only Fused with the Progression Surge can self-heal.
Re: Shallan’s chapter, while I loved her defense of Renarin, I didn’t think that Janala’s suggestion itself was particularly stupid and inferior. IMHO, it is certainly an avenue that they need to explore, in case that they’d have to try and make Urithiru work with just the fabrials that they can themselves produce. In fact, it could give them ideas for new ones.
And finally, but inevitably:
I find this stance fascinating, because what happened to Moash’s grandparents can and does indeed happen in certain first-world countries. It is unfortunately not unknown for corrupt policemen to frame suspects with dodgy evidence and for too friendly/incompetent judges to wink at irregularities and let innocent people who are too poor to hire good representation be taken into custody/browbeaten into plea-bargains, etc. Some of these people die in jail. Would you applaud the murders of said judges iRL as righteous revenge? Would you consider them “killers”? Or is it just anti-royalty prejudice speaking?
See, I would have had much more empathy with Moash’s stance if he had gone after Roshone. But he lost my sympathy when he didn’t even bother to find out who was really responsible, nor was interested when Kaladin told him.
And I don’t believe that Moash would have been a hero or that he is similar to Kaladin at all, except superficially and circumstantially. Moash is completely self-centered and not interested in helping people. He is angry at discrimination against dark-eyes only because it affects him personally, he wouldn’t care once he was himself on top. As we shall shortly see, he’ll be all too ready to blame them for their own misfortunes. Even when he helps poor parshmen, he does it to preserve his own illusions about the singers rather than because he cares about them as individuals.
And of course, it won’t end with him killing the 2 dudes. The Fused will have to start eliminating “non-productive” humans soon, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Moash plays the Judas goat there. He has already turned on a man who gave him everything, he has already turned his back on humanity in general, what is one more step? We have seen how humans who gavce themselves to Odium ended up in the vision of Aharietam…
Let’s not pretend that a modern Western democracy that had the comparable military power wouldn’t have done the same in their shoes. In fact, they were known to start wars for far flimsier reasons than a treacherous murder of a head of state during celebrations of an alliance!
@61Keyblazing
“i’m a little confused by your post. Dalinar burned a city. He burned children. War is war, but those kids weren’t accidental casualties on a unnatural battlefield.”
I wasn’t talking about the Rift in my post. I was answering on @dptullos statement “Dalinar at Moash’s age was was rampaging across Alethkar, waging aggressive, unprovoked war against his neighbors to satisfy his addiction to murder.” Which isn’t true, because Dalinar was a soldier at war his brother started, not him. Blaming Dalinar for Gavilar wars is wrong, that’s what I wanted to say.
“He was under Odium’s influence, but it was Dalinar’s decision.”
His decision he would never take without Odium’s influence.
” that’s one death technically.”
Two deaths and death of a Herald will most likely cause even more deaths.
“If you don’t care for Kaladin, then I don’t see what your issue is with Dalinar over Moash”
Dalinar took responsibility, Moash didn’t. Dalinar rejected Odium, Moash didn’t. Dalinar was always honest with himself, he never pretended to be a hero from a legend, Moash is a hypocrite who explains his murders with “I did it for the a greater good, for Alethkar, for people…” I think it’s pretty simple.
Moash technically was in Team Save the World in books 1 and 2. He left it because he wanted revenge primarily.
For the record, since Venli came up a few posts back, I think her redemption arc is baloney too. She caused not only the death of her sister, the near destruction of the Singers, and this whole Desolation, because she was greedy. Like, her whole culture says, “You know, there was a reason we turned away from those forms, so don’t go looking for them.” Sure, there was some manipulation from Odium or whatever, but her basic motivation is personal power…screw everything/everyone else. I think she’s getting out of jail way too easy. True, I don’t know what sort of trials she has in front of it, but from what I’ve seen so far, it’s not going to be enough.
@58 lordruler
Wearing a pretty uniform and following orders does not magically make killing people okay. That defense was attempted IRL at Nuremberg. Dalinar waged a war of aggression, which was also one of the charges at Nuremberg.
Once again, Odium’s influence is not mind control. Every Alethi soldier is vulnerable to the Thrill, but they don’t willingly seek it out and give themselves to it. Instead of resisting Odium’s influence, Young Dalinar spends his life seeking a high that comes from murder.
Also, please stop trying to take away Dalinar’s choices. The entire climax of Oathbringer is about Dalinar accepting that he was responsible for making himself into a murder junkie, that Odium didn’t do anything to him that he didn’t willingly seek and accept. Odium’s influence is not mind control, and Dalinar was always free to resist. He just chose not to.
@63 Isilel
In most countries, there is some possibility of legal action against corrupt police or judges. A judge who had elderly people locked away without trial could at the very least be removed from office. They could also get away with their crimes, but there would be choices that don’t involve assassination
In Alethkar, the king is the king. No matter how terrible or unjust his decisions are, he can’t be removed from office. One consequence of creating a society where some people are above the law is that their victims will find it necessary to seek justice (or vengeance) outside of legal means.
And yes, it is anti-royalty prejudice speaking. AMERICA!
@64 lordruler
You know, there was a group who tried the “just following orders” defense when it came to waging aggressive wars. It didn’t go so well for them. Dalinar is invading people because his brother said so and because he wants to get high on murder. He’s not responsible for Gavilar’s decision, but he is responsible for his own decision to support Gavilar’s unjust wars.
Plenty of other people are under Odium’s influence, and they’re not burning cities. Dalinar chose to embrace the Thrill rather than resisting it, and it turns out that decision has consequences. If Dalinar had chosen not to be a murder junkie, Odium wouldn’t be able to influence him so easily.
You keep saying that Dalinar took responsibility at the same time you insist it was all Odium’s influence (or, in an earlier post, all Evi’s fault?!). If Dalinar is actually responsible for his actions, then you can’t just blame the Thrill.
@65 sarrow
I agree that Venli did all of the things you describe, and that her primary motivation was personal power. However, Dalinar isn’t likely to turn down her help because she doesn’t deserve a second chance.
The whole concept of “deserving” a second chance is overrated. People who deserve a second chance often don’t need one, and people who need one generally don’t deserve one. Venli has a second chance, whether she deserves it or not, and it’s up to her what to do with it.
On a slight rabbit trail… Isilel mentioned the recent debate over Jasnah’s sword skills, and just yesterday I ran across something interesting in that regard:
So women who can use the sword are not unknown, at all. The fact that she’s an ardent makes it more socially acceptable, but she had to learn somehow. Anyone want to bet whether Jasnah contacted her for private training? Possibly not with Shardblades, given the whole screaming thing (or at least not in the last few years), but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Jasnah learned from Ivis. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if Gavilar, Navani, and Dalinar all quietly encouraged it, given her position and the potential need to defend herself. Obviously she wouldn’t carry a sword, but it’s quite possible that she – or they – realized that it might be handy to know.
Technically Venli is not yet part of Team H/C. She is earning her way in by doing the whole double agent thing. Similar to how Culti touched Dalinar so that he could potentially become a later asset to the right squad.
We don’t really know how people are handling Szeth as of yet. However we do know that he put in work in the defense of Thaylen City, was instrumental in the victory there. The point is that these people aren’t just saying that they are a part of the team, they are actually backing assertions with actions. Moash is doing the same thing…for Team Odium.
Dalinar doesn’t really know Moash very well. If it comes to pass that Moash wants to come back to the light at some point, he’s going to ask for a character reference from the guy that does know him. Kaladin isn’t providing that endorsement. No way.
As for Bridge 4 fighting prowess, these are men who have gone through a harsh training crucible. Just like the fighters in Dune. Once someone is broken down it makes them more receptive to training. This is what Basic Training is designed to simulate. Totally believable. Kaladin actually comments on this in WOK.
Edit: I for one am not taking away Dalinar’s agency. What he did was terrible. But no matter how irrational it is I still find him easier to stomach in terms of his redemption arc than a potential Moash one due to the fact that I find Dalinar to be a more trustworthy guy. Anyone who could betray a guy that does so much for him in the name owhselfishness and revenge could do anything. With Dalinar you know what you’re getting. You know that he won’t betray you. You know that if he has a problem with you, you’re gonna see it from a mile away. You know he’s going to own up to any mistakes or bad call he makes. He does not waffle or blame others. You can respect a guy like that even when you don’t agree with his actions.
One of the things I love about this reread is the banter of Alice and Lyndsey. I also enjoy guest commentators and reading comments of other readers, that’s why I’m here. As a bonus this has sent me down the rabbit hole of rereading the Entire Cosmere. ( Done with Elantris, now into Final Empire). Anyway, I do believe Moash is set up to be Odium’s champion and a Epic Battle will take place with Kaladin and or Dalinar. I can see Moash killing Dalinar and having to face Kaladin and maybe pulling a Obi-Wan and dying to save him and the good guys. Who knows, I came up with this theory so it won’t happen that way, lol.
Interesting aside going back…not sure how many replies, but
“Do Shardblades kill Fused?”
Shardblades work by severing the connection of the physical to the cognitive/spiritual. So they only “free up” the Fused from their host bodies (which then die). The Fused souls (which are probably Cognitive Shadows at this point) are then free to grab another unfortunate host.
Now, Nightblood is another story. It actively consumes investiture. There’s a real likelihood that any Fused Szeth cuts down are gone, no more re-sleeving. That’s a huge gamechanger for this go-around, though of course there are probably thousands of Fused souls to make this an impractical solution (though only a fraction are sane enough for use, it seems).
Aristotle spoke about the nature of blame and praise in his ethics book. It’s not a black and white issue, there are always shades. It’s why our “justice system” has Murder 1 and Manslaughter, with different degrees of punishment (not looking to get into a debate about how just or correct or right…this is just an example of what I’m trying to talk about. Murder one can get the death penalty, where Manslaughter generally comes with possibility of parole). When I speak about the Thrill, I’m not trying to excuse Dal’s actions. He really did all of those things, and and the moment he takes responsibility for it is a HUGE DEAL because of how low he sunk. My point was that I think the level of blame (for the bad things) may not necessarily be in proportion to the things he had direct control over. The Thrill definitely exacerbated things, tipping scales in the blood lust column. Without it, I don’t think Dal would have been quite the monster he became, because a large part of that was him chasing the high the Thrill gave him. I have a feeling that without the Thrill, and how the Alethi came to consider it a divine blessing, things probably would have turned out differently for a lot of people.
By the end of OB, Moash reminds me of the character Baltar in the original Battlestar Galactica. In this version, Baltar betrayed the human race to its enemy, the Cylons. They Cylons sought to exterminate the entire human race. As a reward for betraying the human race (and because the new Imperious Leader thought a human would have valuable insight the fleeing humans, Baltar was given the task of killing destroying the Galactica and the civilian fleet is was protecting.
While Moash did not betray the human race on a macro level (he had noting to do with starting the current Desolation), he did betray his own “Bridge 4”: by first trying to kill (in WoR) and ultimately succeeding in killing (in OB) one of those Bridge 4 was tasked with protecting – Elkohar. Maosh’s decision to accept the Honorblade is analogous to Baltar being given command of several Base Stars and all the Cyclons on them to defeat the remaining humans.
Scath @62: I think during the fight at the end of WoR, Kaladin eviscerated Szeth’s argument that Szeth’s was merely following order, and as such, Szeth did not really mean to kill everybody. I understand you are not making that argument. It is just that I cannot see anybody on Dalinar’s team accepting that argument. In this one instance, I do not think Jasnah could make a better case against Szeth’s reasoning than did Kaladin. This praise of Kaladin comes form someone who more often than not does not like Kaladin.
dptollos @66 said: “And yes, it is anti-royalty prejudice speaking. AMERICA!” In today’s America, that is a pitch right down the middle of the plate. If this were only the forum for my cynical side to offer some political commentary. As it is not, I will only say the following on this topic: “Thank you for a nice easy pitch to hit out of the part, dptollos.”
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@63: Since I am the one who brought forward Jasnah’s unexpected display of fighting skills, I feel incline to offer comments as to why I haven’t spoken of Moash’s own outstanding display. It goes way back to my previous arguments: minor characters behaving outside their established roles without prior explanation.
Allow me to further explain my thoughts. Back in WoR, there were quite some discussions on the matters of Kaladin’s fighting skills. Many felt his progression from an untrained farmboy to the most amazingly talented spearman every man who grazes eyes on him has ever saw was fast and potentially implausible unless his Nahel Bond had a role to play in it. Some believed the Windrunners “innate ability” had to be enhanced fighting skills in the same way Lightweavers are granted photographic memory. Turns out those speculations were wrong and Kaladin’s fighting skills are all his.
Hence, I was back to square one, trying to puzzle out how Kaladin, after just a few years of training, could be so crazing talented he outshone Adolin who presumably trained every day since early childhood. At the time, I was told it was entirely plausible because the spear, as it turns out, it easy to learn. It is more effective on a battle ground because of its length. It is widely used because it is relatively easy to bring raw recruits from untrained to able to hold their own, within a few weeks. In comparison, the sword is fanciful, prestigious, very hard to master, but also terribly inefficient in real combat.
It made sense. Bridge 4 had a few weeks of training to validate their skill levels and, among them, Moash is repetitively singled-out as being the most talented of them all. He is young, fit, and athletic. He takes to the spear rapidly and Kaladin states he is his best spearman. Therefore, when Moash goes out to dispatch on a Fused, using a spear, I wasn’t too surprised. After all, his character has been steadily defined around a few facts: his attitude, his need for revenge and his fighting abilities.
In comparison, Jasnah has been defined by her being a scholar, a researcher having presumably roamed across Roshar’s many libraries looking for information on the Desolations and the Voidbringers. Nothing indicates she has any fighting nor even physical abilities up until she displays them. While we could argue she hasn’t demonstrated anything out of the ordinary, it still turned out not being a behavior I expected into her character given how she has been defined so far. Therefore, even if there is a rational, this rational is one readers have to make for themselves, not one which comes within the narrative unlike Moash.
The narrative tells me Moash is the best spear fighter, after Kaladin, within Bridge 4. Hence, it worked for me.
@66: I brought Nuremberg as an argument before, but it didn’t work out really well for me. I agree being a soldier does not justify mass execution of civilians. Dalinar was told to quell the rebellion at the Rift: he didn’t have to exterminate every single living soul within the city to achieve this. So while Moash was also seeking misplaced vengeance at least he didn’t decide every single children within Kholinar had to die to satiate it.
Each readers have its own buttons and mines were Dalinar choosing innocents would pay the price for their Highprince’s betrayal. No other character has done anything coming close to being equivalent.
@66 dptullos
“Wearing a pretty uniform and following orders does not magically make killing people okay.”
So by your logic every single character in these books are mass murderers? No, soldiers at war, including Dalinar, aren’t murderers. And what’s the point of “pretty uniform”? Dalinar doesn’t pretend to be an angel from the sky. He’s fully aware who he I and he doesn’t deny his killings. Don’t compare him with Amaram who hides his honest face under pretty uniform.
“Every Alethi soldier is vulnerable to the Thrill”
Only Dalinar was Odium’s chosen champion, so the Thrill influence was much stronger for him.
“Also, please stop trying to take away Dalinar’s choices.”
Please stop telling me what to do.
“that Odium didn’t do anything to him that he didn’t willingly seek and accept.”
And yet the narrative makes it clear that Odium has everything to do with it. Dalinar never did choices like burning the town in his right state of mind. He isn’t willingly seeks for killing children and innocents. Huge external factor are involved. Remove the Thrill influence, remove Odium’s Champion thing, remove Evi’s useful advices. No Rift as a result.
“there was a group who tried the “just following orders” defense when it came to waging aggressive wars.”
If you want to compare Dalinar with Nazi or so…No. Dalinar never done anything equally horrible before the Rift. Before Rift he did nothing wrong and of course he isn’t responsible for Gavilar’s wars. How do you imagine Dalinar going against his brother in this question? He also asked Gavilar not to send him to the Rift. Did Gavilar allow him to quite? Dalinar has no other option despite being a soldier. Remember this scene between him and Gavilar? Dalinar says he’s dangerous and should stay away from people, from battles, from fights. What did Gavilar answer? Go and kill more people for me.
“You keep saying that Dalinar took responsibility at the same time you insist it was all Odium’s influence”
I’m saying that Dalinar took responsibility for his actions under Odium’s influence. Which gives him extra points.
If the comments section of the first Moash chapter is like this, I can’t imagine what it’ll be like when he kills Elhokar.
Couple of things I would like to add…part of the reason Moash gets hated on is probably because readers are seeing him begin his villain arc. Venli is undergoing a redemption arc, where she sees how far she’s fallen and resolves to change. Dalinar is also undergoing a long redemption arc. Szeth is as well. Moash is going in the opposite direction. He’s only just started doing villain-ish things.
If OB is really about the choices we make, and accepting responsibility for your actions, then Moash makes terrible choices throughout, and fails at taking responsibility – as many others have said. In addition, Dalinar had Odium’s influence and the Thrill targeting him at all times, Venli also had Odium whispering in her ear (I think?), Szeth was compelled to obey whoever was his master at the time. In my opinion, Moash has the most agency out of these four – and still makes the wrong choice every time.
When deciding to give Dalinar credit for his redemption, it’s a fine line between acknowledging Dalinar took responsibility for his actions, therefore HE was the one entirely at fault, and deserves less credit – and equally acknowledging that Odium was a MAJOR influence on those actions, and therefore deserves more credit. Dalinar would say he deserves less credit. I think he deserves more. Whether Odium’s influence was akin to mind control or not, an evil, God-Level entity was trying to turn Dalinar into his instrument of destruction, using a higher power to turn Dalinar into a bloodlust-crazed warrior. Personally I don’t think it would have been as simple or easy as Dalinar saying “I resist.”
@74: “Dalinar took responsibility for his actions while under Odium’s influence.” Exactly right. In comparison to Moash, who takes no responsibility for his actions while under no influence at all.
In relation to Gaz, I feel he’s like Roshone. He’s a marker of who Kaladin was in TWoK. Kaladin has progressed WAY beyond this level of squabbling – he can’t be bothered with small town lighteyes and former army superiors anymore, as bad as both of them treated him. While we’re on redemption: where does Roshone rank on your redeemability scale? He’s probably got a chance, primarily because he’s got such a strong woman behind him. But if he does anything to little Oroden I’ll want Roshone gouged by Whitespines again.
Fun fact, within WoK Prime, Dalinar publicly executed Elhokar. Now, let’s figure how this discussion would have gone down!
@75 Gaz
All true.
@76
The same, because Elhokar isn’t the main reason people hate this little shit Moash.
@76 Without knowing the full context, it’s impossible to say.
@77 I think at least some of the heat Moash gets is because he kills Elhokar just before he can say the first Ideal. He was finally starting to be more than a puppet king and Moash kills him.
@78: True. I just meant to lighten the mood by posting something humoristic. Brandon commented on how Elhokar has been doomed for a long time, how, at first, he had Dalinar execute him. I always liked knowing this because it had been one of my predictions for the future of SA…. Elhokar needing to be killed off. The author changed his mind, but still I liked knowing what I predicted once was the plan.
I also agree part of the hate Moash is receiving is because he killed Elhokar, a character readers had just started feeling sympathy for. Fact is Moash probably killed many other Kholin soldiers just to get to Elhokar, but we never mention them. Only Elhokar, hence he does matter.at least for some readers.
Moash is fascinating and I’m very optimistic for his story… not to say that he’ll be redeemed, of course. I expect a dramatic death in the avalanche. >.>
I don’t think Moash has surrendered the right to change because he’s somehow just inherently evil, but I do think that by the end of the book he has (or at least appears to have) surrendered the right to change. His PoV talks about how he has given Odium his pain and guilt, how he has chosen to place the blame for his sins on Odium.
Note that this doesn’t have to mean that he was weaker or more corrupt than Dalinar or Venli or Kaladin, he may have just been in worse circumstances. Actually, I’d say that what both Dalinar and Venli did was objectively far more atrocious than what Moash did. But for whatever reason, he has given in where they did not, has given up his capacity to accept that what he did was wrong.
At the current point in the story, Moash can still change, because he still retains the capacity to recognize that what he did was wrong and seek to repent and make amends. But by the end of the story, he appears to have lost that capacity.
Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe in a later book he’ll repent and seek to atone for what he did. But if his character keeps following its current trajectory, he will sooner or later cross that line and lose that capacity for change.
It seems the main difference between Dalinar and Moash is Dalinar rejects Odium while Moash embraces him. This is why I think Moash will sink further down Odium’s rabbit hole. It is possible that Moash can have a redemptive arc, but I don’t think it will happen. Most people here seem to have this basic opinion. Dalinar seeks forgiveness while Moash says Fuck You I gotta kill Elokhar, everything else be damned including me.
Concerning the Fused’s interest in the shards, both blades and plate would be quite beneficial for their cause. After all, Eshonai was very much enhanced by plate, so they could put it on either warrior form parsh or on a suitable Regal form who’d use it to great advantage in battle. And they don’t get voidblades, so even dead shardblades would be a great upgrade to their normal weaponry. And this poses an interesting question – what is it that dead shardblades actually bond to? Would it be possible for the Fused to keep the bond even when disembodied and jumping to different bodies? Corollary to this – would Nale keep his spren-bond if he is killed normally?
SCMof2814@44:
Given what Shallan tells us here about the Oilsworn he’d have to have been an ardent, right? I mean both art and scholarship are supposed to be feminine pursuits in Vorinism.
aggie1 @47:
On the contrary, I feel that Moash’s upbringing in the city, with many other high-ranking darkeyes and low-ranking lighteyes should have made it easier for him. The fact that it didn’t is on his “angry young man” personality. High-nan, wealthy city darkeyes aren’t powerless even in Vorinist countries – you do remember how Jushu Davar could have been enslaved and/or physically harmed, even killed by his dark-eyed creditor and Lin Davar, a Brightlord of 4th dahn could have done nothing to prevent it, right? I am not saying that their system isn’t bad, but in many ways it is actually better than what we had iRL 150 or so years ago, so…
nightheron @53:
That was a very interesting observation, about Shallan. Confrontation with Re-Shepir certainly made her condition worse. Though I wonder that more of the people present weren’t noticeably thraumatised by it than just Teft and Shallan. I was particularly disappointed that we didn’t see Rlain’s reactions, nor get any insight into his thoughts about it.
Keyblazing @61:
I still dislike the whole Szeth revival thing and the retcon that made him mainly about following the law rather than terrified of oblivion after death. I don’t hate him as much as I used to after ED and OB, but I still thing that the whole thing was a mistake.
And as regards Moash, it would be even more of one to let him redeem himself too, it would make redemption look like a cheap revolving door.
@63 Isilel
So I am not excusing such rationale, and I am with you that focusing on Elhokar rather than Roshone makes it harder to sympathize with Moash, but I think in a way I can understand his logic. Roshone may have pushed the situation to happen, but nothing would have occurred had Elhokar not carried it out. In a way, Elhokar “pulled the trigger”. Now again, I totally agree with you, this is faulty logic, but I think that may be why Moash is so focused on Elhokar.
That is a good point. Whereas Kaladin was concerned more with actually improving life, Moash wanted change so it would benefit him and his family. He doesn’t necessarily want to end the system, he just wants to be part of the group at the top of the system.
Way of Kings page 651
“I’d join them in a heartbeat,” Moash said, walking up behind. He folded his arms across his lean, well-muscled chest “If I were in charge, things would change. The lighteyes would work the mines and the fields. They would run bridges and die by Parshendi arrows.“
@ALL
Not saying I side with anyone regarding the Moash vs Dalinar. I am just commenting on a little tidbit regarding “aggressive unprovoked war”. I do not think we know enough about the nature of Gavilar’s conquest of Alethkar to label it that. Now I am most certainly not saying it was fine, and rosey, but there are a few matters to keep in mind. Dalinar mentioned they started because the current highprinces were corrupt. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, but there is a hint that things as they stood were not great to begin with. Secondly, the highprince that Dalinar goes toe to toe with on the cliff edge rose to prominence in his territory the same way and admitted it. That highprince got where he was by killing anyone who opposed him. We have the example of the Sunmaker having done the exact same thing to unite all of Alethkar. Finally even under a “united” Alethkar that we meet in Way of Kings, with everyone at the shattered plains to fight the parshendi, there are still border disputes and battles among the highprinces territories. So from the tidbits we see, the only difference between what Gavilar did, and what was already happening regularly, is he kept going. He didn’t stop at expanding the Kholin border, but there was regular “unprovoked war” between all the highprinces before Gavilar entered the picture. So I say this all not to say the actions of Gavilar and Dalinar are ok, nor justified but to give a bigger/clearer picture of what was going on when they decided to unite Alethkar. I will need a little time to edit my post to include all the pertinent quotes to support all I wrote.
@70 hammerlock
Nightblood is most definitely a game changer in the War with the Voidbringers
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/355-idaho-falls-signing/#e10440
@71 sarrow
Agree on all points
@72 AndrewHB
I understand what you are saying, though I do not think anyone Team Kholin would be arguing to let him off the hook because he was just following orders. As I said, Szeth is owning it. I was just taking EvilMonkey’s example to the next step. If you are a military commander, and you have two people who were originally against you, but now want to swear fealty to you, who are you more liable to trust, the person who held to the code, even if that code was originally contrary to your own? Or the person who backstabbed his allies for personal revenge? One you can rely on to follow your orders, the other perhaps not so much. So that is why I think Szeth would be slightly more trustworthy or easier to bring over than Moash. Not saying either is incapable of redemption, nor am I saying neither should have redemption. Just I could see it being a bridge slightly less far for Szeth than Moash. Hopefullyl I explained it better.
@75 Gaz
Regarding redemption for Roshone, I am not sure. He does not seem to have changed at all when he meets Kaladin again. He still holds all the same resentment and prejudice. Now the voidbringers returning will upset a lot of that, so maybe? You are right, his wife could possibly set him straight as she does seem to be the main head of the house hold in actuality, but I am not sure yet.
Szeth is/was(?) lawful neutral which makes him easier to trust after a change in circumstance.
@84 The thing with Roshone is that the privileged classes tend to see redemption as a return to power and participation in high status circles. Unless genuine contrition and repentance are held out as necessary for a promotion back to capital city politics, he’s unlikely to change.
@85 noblehunter
I pretty much agree. On one hand it could be said that when the desolation comes in force, Roshone won’t have the luxury of being prejudiced towards others when he is basically running for his life. On the other hand, as we will see in a later Moash scene, some lighteyes use the desolation to continue being prejudiced, abusing the darkeyes, and only fight the fused to re-establish their power. Based on how Roshone acted when Kaladin saw him again, I am leaning towards the latter.
So few interesting tidbits and one shameless plug from new WoB
We have seen shardplate or the soon aftermath of it in the books
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/358-fanx-2018/#e10657
He needs to confirm the time line but says Jasnah is definitely ahead in oaths/been on the path of radiance longer compared to Shallan.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/358-fanx-2018/#e10759
Finally my shameless plug. I feel this slightly supports my assertion that spren choosing their radiants is more based on the spren themselves and how they are reacting to the recreance than how “open” someone is. That as he says they “self select”.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/358-fanx-2018/#e10649
The idea of betrayal as one of the worst things a person can do (per EvilMonkey @37 et seq.) is echoed in one of my favorite pieces of literature: Dante’s Inferno. The innermost circle of Hell in that work is reserved for the traitors, and the three very worst traitors (who are tortured for Eternity by Satan himself) are Brutus and Cassius (of Julius Caesar fame) and Judas Iscariot, the betrayer of Christ, with Judas getting the worst of it. All three of them betrayed their masters (as did Satan, for that matter!), and to Dante that was the sin most deserving of damnation. (I’m no classics scholar—far from it—but it’s my opinion that this probably was reasoned the other way—“Who’s the worst person in history? Judas. Therefore, betraying your master is the most heinous thing you can do.”—but it nevertheless reflects the same attitude.)
Regarding the issue of puns in “translated” works, Alice said it best @46, but I’d just add that if you apply that standard, then you can never use a pun in such a work. While some people might be just fine with that :-), I like having puns and am willing to handwave away the issues. YMM (as always) V.
Side note: In Howard Tayler’s Schlock Mercenary, a webcomic I discovered years ago (shortly after it was announced that BWS would finish the Wheel of Time) because Howard is good friends with BWS and which I have read almost every day since, he actually lampshades this in one of his early strips:
Congrats to Brandon. He was the subject of a question on today’s broadcast of Jeopardy (September 18, 2018).
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewHB
(aka the musespren)
In Brandon’s newsletter that came out today, he says he hopes to start Book 4 in January with the hope that it will be published in 2020. But, keeping to the one every three years schedule might be tough.
Another thing I forgot to mention – does it strike anybody else as implausible that Red et al., all former soldiers, would have asked Ishnah(!) for knifework pointers? I mean, the weapons of a spearmen are spear and dagger and they all had combat experience, as both soldiers and robbers. You’d think that they would have been both trained and experienced in it’s use and certainly wouldn’t have needed any teaching from a woman.
Dptullos @66:
Well, since you bring this up, let me point out that specifically in the US you have a whole class of people who routinely get away with killing innocents by mistake, even if gross negligence is involved. And you know very well that while there exists a recourse in theory, it is all but impossible to apply in practice. And it was far worse a few decades ago.
As far as we know, Elhokar was not “corrupt” when he went along with Roshone, he just didn’t check his information sufficently when he ordered the arrest of Moash’s grandparents. Which again, happens often enough right now and sometimes even on international scale, with incomparably higher collateral damage. Yet we don’t clamor for execution of people responsible, who for the most part suffered zero personal consequences for that.
I don’t want to start a political discussion, which would be out of place here, it just seems to me that the notion that even from modern point of view Moash was justified in his lust for revenge against Elhokar in particular, who was only tangentially concerned with his tragedy, lacks objectivity. He would have been, in my view, justified in murdering Roshone for it, who did act with malicious intent. So would Kaladin. Not that Moash didn’t have a theoretical right to pursue him legally too. But he was never interested in finding the real culprit. He’d rather kill a man who saved him and gave him everything in order to kill one that he fixated upon. I am not a Kaladin fangirl, but if Moash would turn on a person to whom he owed so much for such flimsy a reason, then what else wouldn’t he do, if tempted? IMHO, we’ll get a front-row seat to that in the future.
And yes, Moash was primarily concerned with his own place in the hierarchy. There were quite a few people in history like that – who rose from slavery to great power and were quite happy to perpetuate the system as long as _they_ enjoyed it’s fruits. The fact that he quickly flips to blaming darkeyes for their own circumstances only highlights that. If he remained a shardbearer in Vorinist culture, he likely would have gone that way as well eventually.
Gepeto @73:
I am sorry, but your arguments seem a bit self-contradictory. Kaladin had been a soldier for 4 years, during which he trained hard and gathered battle experience. This, put together with his great natural talent (according to WoB he could have been a professional athlete iRL) and later access to stormlight and surges made him the exceptional fighter that we know.
Moash, while very fit, only had a few weeks of training and yet is good enough to kill at least one Fused with conventional weapons and might have been able to take another with him, when attacked by 3 at once! All that without access to stormlight. By contrast, the Wall Guard, with their years of being professional guardsmen couldn’t even take out one of them.
As to Jasnah, there are early indications that she might have had some combat training, IIRC. Namely, during the fight with the robbers in WoK she let them come close and take a swing at her, which she dodged. Now, remember that she was trying to keep her status as a surge-binder secret from Shallan at the time. So, she wouldn’t have wanted to demonstrate inexplicably healing wounds. Nor could she hold stormlight without Shallan noticing, because it was dark. Which means that she was confident enough in her coordination and ability to read her opponent’s movements to do it without the enhancement of stormlight. And again, it was something that was logical for her to learn, either when she understood that she was going to become a radiant or, in some form, even earlier.
After all, she was very aware of the danger of assassins to her family, yet she wandered completely alone through the palace during Gavilar’s feast, a nice target for anybody wanting to take a swing at her. Was she just _that_ bad at the whole “intelligence operative” deal and completely oblivious to her danger, or did she have some means to defend herself?
Scath:
Unfortunately, the WoB about us having seen living shardplate previously doesn’t convey any new information, because it appears a lot in Dalinar’s visions…
OTOH, in the same signing my crackpot theory that Vedel was Liss was debunked… sigh. Apparently, we haven’t seen Vedel on-screen yet.
@91 Isilel
Just spitballing, but I think what Red means is assassination type deevy knifing skills. So in battle you would use a knife one way (deflection, defense, or close quarter fighting), but in espionage and assassination you would employ a knife quite differently (silent take downs, targeting kidneys, armpits to reach the heart, and throats). In that context it would make sense that he would think he would need training in that regard of knife use.
I guess where I am confused regarding the portion that is your response to dptullos is do you think in the US or other nations, people find such things as acceptable? Just because there may be a systemic blockade does not mean there aren’t people either actively trying to seek justice within the system or without. The desire is clearly there. All you need to do is search google or facebook. The difference, to me at least, is those individuals so disenfranchised do not have access to a secret society funded by a nation to help them bring about their goals. That would be why we do not see judges, and political leaders across the globe dropping like flies. Not saying I support such actions, but I am not quite sure I understand the correlation between whether or not Moash is allowed to be upset with Elhokar, and government corruption in the real world. To put it another way, in my opinion, just because people do so in our world and sometimes get away with it, does not imply that such practice is accepted by the general populace and thereby Moash should be fine with it. Now once more I am not saying Moash’s logic to zero in on Elhokar makes sense. I am just confused by your correlation. Could you elaborate?
As to the WoB regarding living shardplate, I will need to dig to check for sure with every scene regarding Dalinar’s visions, but I believe we have not seen a radiant in any of those visions completely unsummon their plate. The closest to that to me is when the Radiant dismissed only their helmet. Now I could be reading too much into this WoB, but Sanderson’s line “Or at least, the soon aftermath of someone” says to me someone unsummoned their entire plate. That causes me to lean towards Jasnah or Shallan. But yes it is far from any smoking gun. I just think it is an interesting tidbit.
edit: it could be argued that when Dalinar was in the vision, freefalling with the radiant, that that was after the shardplate was unsummoned, but the WoB says the soon aftermath. The Radiant stated that in order to lash Dalinar, he had to be without plate. So that says to me the person Dalinar was in the vision, was without plate during the entire trip to the town. So unsummoning the plate to travel there was not an immediate occurrence. Though again this is all my own interpretation and I am probably reading too much into it.
@91 Isilel
Vedel can’t be Liss because Chana is Liss ;)
Moash’s story in Oathbringer is a fascinating one to me, and draws out many of the book’s themes around redemption.
In the Stormlight Archive, redemption is possible for anyone so long as they take responsibility for their actions, repent and recognize why they were wrong, and sincerely seek to do better. It’s made very clear that the heinousness of one’s deeds is not a barrier to redemption. The actions taken by Dalinar (in his youth), Szeth, and Venli are all far worse than anything Moash has done. Moash and Amaram are distinguished not by the scale of their evil, but by their refusal to repent. (Szeth’s chapter illustrates this symbolically with the game at the Purelake: victory is based not on acquiring the fewest stains, but on washing them away.)
Moash’s journey in the book is an effective parallel to Kaladin’s (in the previous book) and to Dalinar’s. In this chapter, and at several other times, he feels deep regret for his actions, and in a later chapter he appears to be punishing himself for them (deliberately sentencing himself to hard labour when he could do lighter work). But that regret never leads him to take the step of taking genuine responsibility for them or making a change; in the absence of true repentance, penance is meaningless.
Continually, Moash makes excuses to himself: Elhokar deserved it; this is what the world is like; anyone else would have done the same; I’ no worse than other people. (Rather like Kaladin midway through Words of Radiance, when he’s lost Syl, realizes the assassination plot is wrong, but keeps trying to justify it to himself or tell himself there’s nothing he can do.) In some ways, he tries to do for the newly-awakened Singers what Kaladin did for the bridgemen, defending and supporting them. But because his motives are all wrong and he hasn’t sincerely grappled with his guilt, these attempts don’t stop his journey from continually taking him to darker places. This contrasts with both Kaladin and Dalinar, who acknowledge that they acted wrongly and make a deliberate change. It also parallels Amaram, who by the end of the book has recognized that his actions are evil, but chooses not to take responsibility for them even when he is offered forgiveness.
I find Moash’s chapters genuinely tragic, as the story of a man who knows on some level that he’s walking ever-deeper into darkness but can’t bring himself to actively acknowledge that and turn back. I don’t hate or even dislike him; I deeply pity him.
Moash shares a lot with Judas Iscariot. Both were seeking the overthrow of an oppressive system, both fell in with a group that welcomed them led by an exemplar, both got frustrated that their leaders refused to rebel, and both wound up betraying their fellowship and their leader. If this holds true, then I foresee a handful of potential endings for Moash as most likely:
1 – Going full Judas (never go full Judas). Eventually, Moash’s despair over his actions will grow to the point where he sees himself as utterly irredeemable, and he kills himself.
2 – Going full Ingtar (or full Vader if you prefer). Eventually, Moash’s despair over his actions will grow to the point where he sees the only path to redemption being to sacrifice himself to save everyone else (most likely to save Kaladin or Bridge Four specifically).
3 – Attempting to go full Ingtar and failing. Eventually, Moash’s despair over his actions will grow to the point where he sees the only path to redemption being to sacrifice himself to save everyone else, but he fails and ends up living through his sacrificial moment, forcing him to have to deal with his actions in the aftermath.
4 – Going full Peter. Eventually, Moash’s despair over his actions will grow to the point where he sees that nothing that he is capable of doing can earn him redemption but he turns himself over to Kaladin and company regardless, finally owning his actions and taking responsibility for what he has done and throwing himself on their mercy. This is my preferred redemption arc, but also the one that I see as least likely.
Other potential endings for Moash could include sudden and arbitrary death (especially if it comes in the form of a Fused-style possession), taking up Odium after its current shardbearer dies (and potentially then being killed in turn prior to a third party taking up Odium and combining it with Honor and perhaps even Cultivation), or even just surviving the war in obscurity and ignominy, ignored and unknown to those around him and never having taken any of his opportunities for redemption.
I like the Full Ingtar version if he gets the redemption arc. But I have a feeling that he will be a more successful Amaram due to his obvious self-loathing. Either way, I trust Brandon to put together something I would like regardless of the path he chooses for Vyre. Honestly, about the only thing I would hate is if Moash disappears with no further significance to the narrative. He has been built up too much to get the Eshonai dead-in-a-ditch treatment and no one to tell his story. I hate the guy but he is too good a villian to waste.
Isilel @@@@@ 91:
That is a good point about the Wall Guard failing to take out even one Fused over an extended period of time, whereas Moash by himself is able to kill the first one he meets. I do think it odd that the Wall Guard never managed one even with archers. There does seem to be some inconsistency in just how tough the Fused are to take out. Moash manages it with just a regular knife; maybe it really was just a lucky stab.
As for Jasnah and her combat prowess, I do agree that the way she took on those thugs in the alley is convincing proof that she has had fighting experience; there is no way that was the first time she did something like that. Where and when she learned without it becoming spoken about in Alethkar is a mystery. Maybe Ivory taught her? When she sees him during her flashback prologue of her father’s murder, he is brandishing a sword.
I wonder sometimes if there is a middle line. Between not making things better and not making things worse. Basically becoming a hermit if you will. Basically you see how badly you fucked things up, but you fear any attempt to make things better will only make things worse, so you just go away for awhile.
On another note maybe the dustbringers are those who can’t trust themselves BECAUSE of their self loathing so they turn their judgement over to someone they do trust, and turn themselves on the enemy. And they can only become a dust bringer after they have taken themselves apart
@96 I would be happy with dead in a ditch by the end of the next book. Though you’re right it’d be a cheat for him to be disposed of so easily.
@94 KatherineMW
I love your interpretation of Szeth’s scene at Purelake. I would have never thought of it that way. It is a very beautiful way to see it. Especially when juxtaposed with Szeth getting back in touch with his joy of flying, and the sense of that freedom from burden. I whole heartily agree on all your other points as well
@95 Porphyrogenitus
Hmmm, I could see Moash going down either 2, 3, or 4. I do not see 1 happening as Moash doesn’t seem like the type to not go down fighting. If he is to kill himself, I see him wanting to use his death to accomplish something in his mind.
@96 EvilMonkey
I don’t see Moash just dying off screen. In my mind, Amaram was meant to develop and explain Kaladin’s hatred for lighteyes and Kaladin overcoming that hatred to be better and grow. So by the time he died, his purpose was served so a more dramatic death I feel wouldn’t have accomplished anything further. Sadeas was to challenge Dalinar’s growth into a better and honorable person by tempting him with an “easier path” and “go with the flow”. So again by the time he died, his purpose was served and making a more dramatic death I feel wouldn’t have accomplished anything futher. Eshonai was to give us a face to the Parshendi. Show they have emotions and are not a nameless evil enemy bringing about the Desolation. They are a desperate people just trying to live. Her dead in the ditch treatment was meant to show that tragedy. So I do not see those deaths serving those purposes with Moash. Then again who knows what his character arc may take that that type of death may actually in fact be warranted in the end.
@98 BenW
The problem with the hermit solution is in some cases even inaction is a negative action. I think (assuming you are referring to Moash) if Moash went full hermit while people are fighting and dying on either side when he could have at least tried to make things better is just as bad as him trying to make things better and it ends up worse.
That is an interesting interpretation of the Releasers. I don’t necessarily prescribe to it, but I do like the imagery :)
@91: I do not find it self-contradictory.
As I mentioned earlier, the narrarive has taken time to depict Moash as a talented fighter and a fast learner. It has been established learning the spear is fairly easy and quick. Moash also trained with Zahel to fight at a disadvantage and later, he trained as a Shardbearer. Sure, he does not have years of experience, but it seems to me he has enough to make it plausible he might have gotten lucky enough to actually kill a Fused.
The same narrative never said anything to the skill levels and/or training the tower guards received. We might want to take into consideration they were trying to pick with lances Fused who were flying above their heads. Moash had a better chance of succeeding during his one encounter. We should also note part of Moash’s success was linked to the Fused not anticipating he would drop his Blade to favor a spear. This was a bold move no one could have predicted.
Therefore, as a reader, I did feel I was given enough background to believe it might indeed be possible for Moash to have killed a Fused. After all, the same narrative had Kaladin struck a Shardbearer with a lucky knife throw…
As for Jasnah, I do not find it obvious she would gotten swords fighting training considering nothing in the narrative so much as hints towards it. The fact she manages her own network of assassins is not prove enough: her activities are not so different than other women of her rank. None, as far as we know, are being trained in fighting. None, as far as we know, have thought it was logical they should get it. Her display against the thieves is more easily explained by her surgebinding, by the confidence in her surgebinging abilities than by actual knowledge of how to yield a sword.
She also never had reasons to fear for her safety, at least not until she started messing up with the Ghostbloods. Assassination is not the Alethi’s preferred way of dealing with adversity (we have a WoB on the matter). As a woman, she was also highly unlikely to be targeted: her prolling alone in her own castle is not prove enough either.
My take is thus, if Jasnah indeed received training by presumably hiring a foreign trainer to travel with her (how was he not noticed?) while dedicating some of her time (narrative implies all she has been doing is researching) to learn fighting techniques and swords mastery, then the narrative isn’t hinting towards it.
The behavior still falls outside how the character had been defined so far. Jasnah is not presented to the readers as the “warrior princess”, but as ” the wise scholar”. In comparison, Moash is presented as the “young talented fighter”. Hence, in one case the character’s achievements match what I was told the character could do while in the other, it doesn’t. It shows the character display an unsual skill set (unusual for this character) without showing where it comes from.
I find none of this contradictory. I understand others seem to readily believe Jasnah has had inconigo warrior training but, as a reader, I am going to need a stronger proof. As I also said above, it is quite likely Brandon will provide it within the next book.
General note on Amaram: Brandon recently admitted he had planned to write viewpoints for Amaram’s character in order to better portray his downfall. He chose not to do so because the book was already very fairly big and those were some of the narrative elements he decided to drop.
This means readers such as myself finding out we did lack some of the context and the inner motivations for the character’s downfall aren’t out in the blues in arguing it might have been nice if we had had viewpoints. Brandon planned for them, but was no able to put them into the book.
I had hope for Moash at this point and it only grew as he identified with the regular Parshmen. The thing that worried me though was that he was constantly justifying his actions. Like young Dalinar, he kept making excuses for why the things he did weren’t really his fault. Things obviously went downhill from there, but even at this point I don’t think he could be on a redemption arc until he accepts that what he did by betraying Kaladin and trying to kill Elokhar was wrong, even if he had good reasons to want vengeance on Elokhar.
@102 marethyu316
I don’t feel Dalinar made excuses when he was younger. He claimed every action and thought they were right. When the highprince he fought on the cliff mentioned Dalinar killing for the Almighty, Dalinar scoffed and said those kills are his own. I think what Dalinar avoided was deep down his feelings that he didn’t like killing people willy nilly. That side is the side Evi helped bring out when she was alive, and her death shined a light on. Dalinar then owned up that his actions were wrong, and took responsibility for them. The rest of your post I agree with.
@100 Sorry I shouldn’t have brought up the hermit solution because it doesn’t really apply to Moash as he has ALREADY Fucked things up, but has NOT tried to make things better. But the hermit idea is something that I can’t help but think of from time to time. A better character to do it for example might have been Elkohar. We’ve SEEN what happens when he TRIES to help he was a disaster. He tried to trust his advisors but he got bad advice, so he tried to trust his insticts but his insitincts were wrong.
I guess I brought it up because as someone who is constant afraid of hurting beople and is questioning weather I am right or not I can see it as something that can appeal to me. I have strong convictions. But my convictions tend to be Left leaning moderate when the rest of the world seems to leans towards extremes of left or right. As a result I sometimes wonder if I am the asshole who is being left behind by the times. And IF I am said asshole I don’t want to be the one who forces my convictions on others. I don’t THINK that is the case but it often feels that way like people are telling me I am an asshole because I can see all sides of the issue. I know logically I shouldn’t care what they think but I can’t help it. It especially hurts because I am someone who perfers the logical argument when it seems the only that ever works nowadays is yelling at people with emotion. It feels like there is no way for me to make a difference without becoming the complete antithesis of everything I am. I don’t want to become someone I am not. But neither do I want to force my ideals on others. So I am left in this position that it feels like the only thing I can do to not loose my self and not force my views on others is to retreat from the world. In sort I am at a kind of an impasse. I am sorry if I talk to much.
@104: A theory I once had had Elhokar decide to follow the lead of others as opposed to having him trying to be the leader. I do not think the man was a walking disaster and needed to go into hermitage to avoid harming others, but I do think, as a leader, he wasn’t adequate. I think he could have thrived by following someone else’s lead.
In other words, he was more of a soldier than a general, but he was told he needed to be the general.
@104 BenW
No worries. Hmmmm, I agree with you regarding Elhokar. In a way that was what he ultimately did with Dalinar. He realized his decision making has been suspect in the past so he took a step back and examined himself. Once he found people he felt he could in fact trust, then he allowed himself to take actions, predicated on there being a system in place to restrain, teach, or fix whatever he does. He voluntarily placed restrictions on himself because up until that point, as King he largely had none. The Hermit is also classically well known not only for isolation, but self reflection. You are removing yourself from the external, to better examine and get in touch with the internal.
Now as to your own life, I believe it is a balancing act we all struggle to maintain. We should not change ourselves for others, but at the same token, by the very nature of having other people in our lives, we experience things that change ourselves fundamentally. Just like in a relationship, whether it be romantic or otherwise, one should not give oneself up for another, at the same token one should be open to experience and incorporate others within themselves. Hmmm, perhaps this would better illustrate my point. Instead of feeling like you either have to keep your blanket as is, or set it on fire in exchange for a brand new blanket, you could look at yourself as a quilt. One in which you are actively sewing new pieces of fabric to as your life progresses. Sometimes the quilt gets holes in the portions already sewed, so you add a new patch to that hole. It does not destroy or completely alter the quilt as a whole, but it does allow the quilt to continue to function, incorporate new information, and perhaps become an even more attractive quilt. People are not only one definable aspect. They are many. Like Fight Club said, you are not your house, you are not your car. In this case, you are not only your particularly held beliefs. You are the history that made you hold those beliefs, and you are the future that will cause you to alter, discard or continue to hold those beliefs. I write this all to say, one moment talking to someone who may disagree with you or even agree with you need not define your life. You get to decide for yourself what defines you. Hopefully I did not overly ramble.
@106. I haven’t deicided to become a hermit. I have worked out what my problems were. But I can understand WHY people do is what I guess I am saying. That paralyzing fear of screwing up anything you touch. To out it in context. When I was young I had two incidents with my dad that shaped me. One was a case where he yelled at me (or at least that how it seems looking back at it. Maybe I was just oversensitive to volume) for not doing something the right way and preceded to tell me how to do it the right way. Another was where he yelled at me to figure out how to try to figure out how to do something on my own. Between the two I have a bit of a fear where I figure that either way I risk being yelled at, either for trying on my own and doing it wrong, or for asking for instructions on how to do it instead of doing it on my own. Between the two I figured it was easiest to just ask for instructions and only be yelled at once. It doesn’t help matters that I was misdiagnosed with OCD/ADD/Tourette’s back then instead of Asperger’s or autism so although my parents DID try to help me I was probably getting the wrong type of help.
Now a days I realize I have a problem and I am trying to get over said thing and act more. But that crippling fear of messing up and always needing instructions is STILL a BIG problem I have.
@107 BenW
That is an unfortunate occurrence that has happened to myself, my wife, and many others. We all deal with it in different ways. I handled it much like you by gaining anxiety on any action I take resulting in me avoiding taking any action at all. My wife handled it by being just as aggressive to the person back and doing it on her own. In time and with help we both learned how to handle it better as we grew up. One thing that helps is to internalize that in this situation you are not at fault. Frequently it is actually the individual’s (in this case your father) fault. I do not know your father, and if I am overstepping bounds I apologize, but very likely your father had trouble explaining to you, in the manner that you learn skills, how to do the task. His frustration with his inability to do so coupled with any personal issues he has spilled over into lashing out/blaming you. We all have issues. We all deal/handle them different ways. I have come to learn in this given scenario, people learn different ways. If a concept has trouble getting across to someone, it isn’t that that person is stupid, or incapable. Unfortunately people very quickly jump to that thought both on the teaching end as well as the learning end. It is that there is a barrier to communication. One way to deal with this issue is to understand how you learn, and focus your questions and communication on that. Somethings I just get. It just makes sense to me, leaving other people dumbfounded on how I figured it out on my first try. Other things I need to go through it multiple times before I comprehend it while other people look at me in confusion on how I cannot get something so obvious. So I have learned to take extensive notes that I can reference anytime I have trouble till I have it down pact. Sensitivity to loud noises, and confrontation are standard hallmarks of anxiety. Something that helped me cope is slowly learning that each action does not mean the end of the world. It isn’t about doing it right or wrong. It is about learning. You are going to make mistakes. No one knows anything intrinsically. As cliche as it sounds, it is about forgiving yourself, and allowing yourself to make mistakes. Providing yourself internally the understanding and support you did not get externally.
Now I did not say all this to say how to live your life. You said yourself you are handling it, and I wish you the best in your endeavors. Just you shared an aspect of your life, and I went through something similar and shared what I learned and how I have come to handle it.
I have the problem of doing BOTH to a degree. I aporlogize when I shouldn’t and refuse to apolize when I should. This means my fmaily dynamic can use some improving. I have started asking my parents to come into every other therapy session with me as I want to imporove our relationships. I neither want to hurt them or be hurt by them. I think of myself as somewhere between Renarin and Jasnah (based on what little we know about them*) if that helps. I LIKE the logical debates and discussions I find them fascinating, and have a Hard time stopping myself when I get cought up in them. But I HATE hurting people and being hurt by people. And nothing hurts me more then realizing then in my pursuit of something I love I have caused pain to someone I love. I am trying to find a balance that lets me talk about the things I love with my family with out either obeing overwhelmed by them or overwhelming them. It helps that we genuinely care about each other and get a long MOST of the time. I also used to be MUCH worse as a kid. I could be a real brat back then. I also do have actual OCD, though I am sure the others are all misdiagnoses.
*I found a great tumblr post on Jasnah as an autistic., more so then the speculation on the 17th shard. Can I send you a link in a DM? Actually in would be probably better to continue this conversation in a DM. Thanks for being there for me.
@109 BenW
I will respond further to your personal life in a private message as requested, but you made an interesting point regarding Renarin and Jasnah so I will respond to that portion here. Gavilar, Shallan, and Navani tend to view Jasnah as having this haughty sense of intellectual superiority. Yet we do also see Jasnah use her intellect to frequently defend the ones she loves/cares for (Dalinar from Ialai, Shallan from Kabsal, and Taravangian (when she thought he was an invalid) from the local aristocrats for instance). When Gavilar made the comment to Jasnah “Is it terribly difficult for you? Living with the rest of us, suffering our average wits and simple thoughts? Is it lonely to be so singular in your brilliance, Jasnah?” She, as stated in the book “took it as the rebuke it was”. She wasn’t thinking of how what she said sounded. Her father was admonishing her for leaving the party. She stated why, she felt there wasn’t anything worthwhile to staying. He says well other people enjoy it, and she, without thinking says other people are idiots. Everything was perfectly reasonable and logical in the beginning. To her as people get drunker, the conversations get duller, and she would rather just remove herself from the scenario. This is challenged, so she responds in kind, and then gets rebuked for acting superior. There are other instances where she reacts, and then admonishes herself after. Like her confrontation with Amaram in Oathbringer. She is still very much trying to learn that balance, and I give her credit (and you) for how far she (and you) have come.
I’m so behind on this reread and it’s often an overwhelming ordeal to catch up, but this is obviously an area that generates a lot of discussion. I fall more in the following camp:
1)Moash has understandable grievances with both the system of Roshar as well as various specific happenings in his life.
2)I have a very high threshhold for what I determine ‘irredemable’ (I’m even holding out for a Kylo Ren redemption ;) Even though I think, as of TLJ, he’s a bitter, past-fixated, self-fixated,toxic person ) so I don’t ‘hate’ Moash like some do or view him as any inherently worse than some of the other characters – we’re just being introduced to him at his lowest point. I do see the glimmers of what could lead to redemption, especially now that he has hit rock bottom.
3)THAT SAID he does not get any passes from me when it comes to his general attitude – as others have pointed out, he lacks a lot of self awareness.
Betraying a close friend for your own revenge agenda is disgusting, and I also am a little cynical about how much he really is invested in ‘changing the system’. I think for a lot of people (and this goes for real life), they think they are revolutionaries, but really they just want to be the ones in power and oppressing the oppressors. Even though that is satisfying, it just means (even if they succeed) in a hundred years we’ll just be in the same place but with different people on top. And there’s a point where you can’t blame ‘systems of oppression’ for that – there’s a point where it is still on you to be the person you want to be. I do think a lot of people are in a scenario where (due to outside and systemic reasons) they don’t always have the same choice/agency – but Moash DID. He had opportunities and advantages. And however you slice it, or how justified he may be, revenge is generally a very personal motive. It’s about what is satisfying to HIM, not about Alethi society, the marginalized, etc. When I think of the philosophers and society-changers I admire, while they didn’t shy away from ‘speaking truth to power’, or engaging in protests that could be inconviencing, it was clearly rooted in a recognition of the dignity of all people, not just about vengeance. And I think that’s where a lot of the frustration with him lies.
I’m not sure if I feel the Alethi culture is garbage or not. Part of me rails against that kind of talk just because it’s a bit simplistic – all cultures grow organically and there are probably parts that came out of something that once made sense, but were twisted, and usually cultures have some redeeming qualities as well. But then I think about their slavery, their honor/war focused attitudes, the whole ‘might makes right’ philosophy that allowed somebody like Blackthorn to be considered a venerated member of society and am kind of with you. But even their warmongering is probably a holdover from a time that they were fighting for survival. Their culture definitely does need to evolve…
I also have a serious mistrust of anybody who talks about ‘the greater good’ or starts to justify atrocities against people who ‘prop up a corrupt society’ because I think it’s so easy to start to value your ideal over the actual people you are ostensibly fighting for. Or as I mentioned above, you really just think the ‘greater good’ means ‘people like me in charge’.
All of that said, I do wonder if Moash (similar to where they may be taking Kylo Ren) will NOT be redeemed simply because they are showing a character who has chosen not to, and has chosen to walk a dark path that is fixated on their pain and grievances and vengeance.
The other really tragic thing is the discussion we’ll likely have later about Elkohar who himself was trying to achieve redemption – but to Moash, who had kind of a #FuckElkohar attitude, that wasn’t even something he could conceive. Which is why, myself I would stay away from a #FuckMoash attitude, but I still don’t view him as some kind of hero, either.
As to the Passions – in Catholic world the term ‘Passion’ has a slightly different meaning; think Christ’s Passions, which are actually more about suffering (the word ‘compassion’ derives from the same idea – suffering with somebody). So I always have that in the back of my mind when thinking of ‘Passion’ as a religious thing, but I’m not sure if that’s at all where he’s going with it. But I’m also counted as somebody who hopes we see more of that!
I love Renarin :) That is all :)
Gaz @43 – I love the contrast you bring up between how Kaladin approaches Roshone and how Moash would.
If there is a redemption, I’d like it to be more than a ‘then they die’ redemption – in a way, that’s too easy. What is more interesting to me is a character that gets that second chance and USES it for good and has to keep working at it. I think those are the most interesting characters – characters who have to work to be good. Even characters like George Bailey (in It’s A Wonderful Life) I think are engaging in this way.
@BenW – “I have strong convictions. But my convictions tend to be Left leaning moderate when the rest of the world seems to leans towards extremes of left or right. As a result I sometimes wonder if I am the asshole who is being left behind by the times. And IF I am said asshole I don’t want to be the one who forces my convictions on others” – I can completely empathize with this :)
@111 Lisamarie
I agree wholeheartily, Renarin is awesomeness :)
I agree, it is more powerful when a character is redeemed and continues to do good than die. I think Dalinar is a wonderful example of that, and Szeth is well on his way as well.